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Are good lawyers born and not made? Or can you learn to be a good lawyer?

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40 minutes ago, McGillObama said:

I love the lawyers in here thinking their profession is the highest level of intellectual ability. Congrats, guys, you can read English quick, use a bit of deduction, apply the law to fact patterns. Consider looking up any topic in theoretical physics. Let me do it...

yo man relax. who hurt u?

You might think we're insulting you, but your manner of speaking is very condescending. The fact that you posted and deleted comments (twice!) suggests that you know this, so stop pretending like everyone is 'taking a dump' on you.

On topic: there's smart and not-so-smart people in every profession. In the case of law, medicine or PhD-level scientific academia, the floor is likely higher since you had to jump through some hoops to get there that are somewhat reliable indices of some intellectual capacity. Maybe everyone could theoretically be trained as a lawyer or doctor, but you'd probably have some pretty bad ones by the end.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, McGillObama said:

people have let loose a deluge of insults towards myself, biochemistry and science generally. This whole thread is hilarious - a sort of smug belief that law requires some special innate intelligence because law is some grand intellectual endeavor.

I don't know why I'm continuing to engage, but fuck it. 

You were mocked (correctly) for making some very strange claims about genetics. I understand why you would take issue with that. No one likes to be mocked. But are non-lawyers being mocked here? I don't think so. I think it's just an objective assessment that lawyers do tend to have the qualities normally associated with intelligence. 

I think that many lawyers are more intelligent than the average person. But that's not a value judgment. The particular kind of intelligence needed for law is valuable for practicing law effectively. But outside of being useful for practice, I accord it very little weight. I like and admire many people who aren't especially good communicators, and probably don't have the attention to detail for law. I know many lawyers who are very smart and excellent at lawyering, but who I do not particularly like or admire.

Intelligence is just one thing. There are other qualities that are far more important. I care far more about a person's compassion, sense of humour, and self-awareness than whether they can write a persuasive brief. So when I say that law isn't a good fit for most, I don't mean it as smug or an insult. I just mean that law isn't a good fit for everyone. 

Edited by realpseudonym
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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, McGillObama said:

I'll think about law when I look into all the inflated government and private contracts driven up in price by incessant middlemen siphoning the life out of North America.

Yeah, North America in 2021, what an awful place to be. Get some perspective for fuck’s sake. You remind me of the guys that work in construction and think safety should be treated as an afterthought. Have you ever considered  why you have the ability to express yourself so freely whereas elsewhere you wouldn’t? 

Edited by MountainMon

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What even is a "good" lawyer? How can we deliberate over if "good" lawyers are born or made, if even within legal academia, the model of what a "good " lawyer is, is still actively being explored and contested. The answer truly depends on who you ask. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, McGillObama said:

This whole thread is hilarious - a sort of smug belief that law requires some special innate intelligence because law is some grand intellectual endeavor.

I will give you this, this thread is hilarious but it's not because of the reason you think it is.

1 hour ago, McGillObama said:

That's why all the average students from my high school chose law after having studied civics 101 in undergrad.

Talk about smug. What kind of superiority complex do you need to make statements like this?

Edited by ImposterSyndrome
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1 hour ago, MountainMon said:

Yeah, North America in 2021, what an awful place to be. Get some perspective for fuck’s sake. You remind me of the guys that work in construction and think safety should be treated as an afterthought. Have you ever considered  why you have the ability to express yourself so freely whereas elsewhere you wouldn’t? 

I'll get in trouble for these comments, I just don't care. North America is less free than you think. It's better than Saudi Arabia or Russia but at least those countries aren't hypocritical.

Anyway, I'm thinking of Japan, South Korea and similar countries that value engineering over red tape.

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3 minutes ago, McGillObama said:

I'll get in trouble for these comments, I just don't care. North America is less free than you think. It's better than Saudi Arabia or Russia but at least those countries aren't hypocritical.

Anyway, I'm thinking of Japan, South Korea and similar countries that value engineering over red tape.

I just, have so many perplexing thoughts 😂

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17 minutes ago, McGillObama said:

I'll get in trouble for these comments, I just don't care. North America is less free than you think. It's better than Saudi Arabia or Russia but at least those countries aren't hypocritical.

Anyway, I'm thinking of Japan, South Korea and similar countries that value engineering over red tape.

Please elaborate.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

I just, have so many perplexing thoughts 😂

What, you mean you think it’s weird to point to somewhere that has strictly enforced defamation laws that criminalize the publication of factually accurate information (i.e. South Korea) as a place that is more “free” than Canada? 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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51 minutes ago, McGillObama said:

engineering over red tape.

?????? These things go hand in hand.

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@McGillObama I find your posts a little concerning here and not for the reasons others have rightly pointed out, or even the comments you made about intelligence and lawyers, etc. It concerns me that you may be going to law school with beliefs and value systems that are quite narrow-minded and judgmental. Look, I don't care how intelligent you are. I really don't. I care about whether you are unbiased and objective enough to treat your peers well, participate intelligently in law school classes and legal clinics, and be the kind of person a client would want to have as their lawyer. Leaving your academic intelligence aside, your emotional intelligence is clearly lacking right now (and it's ok if you are young and inexperienced as I am assuming you are now). You come across as someone that would be quick to jump to irrational conclusions and not act in the best interests of your clients as you have all these pre-conceived notions about people and different communities. 

I'm not really knocking you down here. Take this as advice and an opportunity to learn. Many of the law students and lawyers here had similar values and belief systems as you before they (we) went to law school and starting practicing in the real world. Think about the fact that as a lawyer, you will likely be servicing very real, ordinary, average intelligence people in most cases, and what kind of person you want to be when acting in their interests, and how you want to carry out your responsibilities and proceed through life. 

Seriously, who the fuck cares about this law vs. physics, lawyer innate intelligence, etc. BS. This shit doesn't concern me at all in the real world. As someone going to law school wanting to be a lawyer, you need to let go of your preconceived notions and biases of what being a lawyer entails, and be more open-minded and willing to interact with people and communities that are different from you. This will take you a lot farther in life than your biochemistry degree, your IQ, how many publications you have, and so on. The fact that you are in the process of going to law school, yet lingering on what your high school peers are doing and what their grades in high school may have been, is quite alarming. You do not want to carry this personality into law school because it reeks of toxicity and negativity. I can assure you that even if you were a law school medalist, I would not want to be your friend. And your peers will remember who you were during your time there when you all graduate and go out into the real world. So please, for your own sake, be kind and gentle to yourself and others, and go into law school with a little more respect for your peers, and openness to learning from others and about their different experiences and value systems. I wish you good luck in your future endeavours. 

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This got a lot funnier than I could have expected. 

As a Rick and Morty fan with an IQ of 190 (I assume), I can confidently say that anything short of theoretical physics is essentially carpentry by another name.

I mean, even here we can see a lower science student who struggles with basic reading comprehension.

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There's been a lot of focus here on IQ but one of the things that makes a good lawyer is a heavy measure of EQ and our friend here McGillicutty has demonstrated why many of my former STEM colleagues lack even a smidgen of EQ.

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18 hours ago, LabouriousCorvid said:

What even is a "good" lawyer? How can we deliberate over if "good" lawyers are born or made, if even within legal academia, the model of what a "good " lawyer is, is still actively being explored and contested. The answer truly depends on who you ask. 

Found the good lawyer.

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10 hours ago, Rashabon said:

There's been a lot of focus here on IQ but one of the things that makes a good lawyer is a heavy measure of EQ and our friend here McGillicutty has demonstrated why many of my former STEM colleagues lack even a smidgen of EQ.

TBF lawyers generalizing about EQ of another profession is the pot calling the kettle black. You're correct that it's very useful for lawyers, but lawyers are notorious for having low EQ compared to other professions (and this is backed by studies).

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McGillObama, aren't the student who dropped out of McGill law in 1L before receiving any sort of grades back? Or are you their "friend" and advancing the same arguments re: physics undergrad. 

Let's all stop feeding the trolls. Also, this portion of the board is for articling students/lawyers - let's stop all the 0L talk about the profession and what not. Take it to the appropriate area.

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19 minutes ago, artsydork said:

McGillObama, aren't the student who dropped out of McGill law in 1L before receiving any sort of grades back? Or are you their "friend" and advancing the same arguments re: physics undergrad. 

You're thinking of @Groucho, but yeah, he would post the exact same nonsense.

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Posted (edited)

Just popping in here to say, I was taught organic chemistry by a person who was an absolutely brilliant synthetic chemist but also an outspoken young earth creationist. It destroyed any ideas I had of objectively superior intelligence.

And to just really hit the point home, the instruments used in synthetic chemistry, that this person used daily, requires the universe to have existed for billions of years.

Edited by lawstudent20202020
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12 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

You're thinking of @Groucho, but yeah, he would post the exact same nonsense.

You just had to summon him

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