Funding Dual JD

[Lawschoolhopeful678 1]

Was recently accepted to Windsor Dual JD program. This school is not my first choice but I will take what I can get after being denied at 3 other Ontario schools. For those who attend the Dual JD program or will be in the fall, how are you funding this? Have you secured a LOC that is high enough to cover tuition, rent, food? I plan on taking OSAP but OSAP is not offering much in comparison to the cost of attending. Any helpful information is appreciated, thank you.

[TheAEGIS 268]

Lots of students used a line of credit to make up for what OSAP didn't cover. Even students in the single program. I certainly did.
I believe Windsor has an agreement with Scotiabank that ensures the LOC students receive is generous enough to cover all the things you mentioned. I believe I was eligible to for up to 130k without a co-signer/guarantor. I think dual students get more.

You can also apply for needs based grants from the school which is good to shave several thousands off your tuition.

That said, it's certainly worth thinking about what that much unsecured debt will do to you in the future. The timeline for repayment is reasonable, but it does follow you for quite a few years afterwards.

[Relentless2017 87]

Scotiabank increased their PSLOC to 180,000. You should be able to cover tuition and textbooks with that amount, and use OSAP + bursaries (which I hear the average dual student gets about $6000) to pay for living expenses. 

Highly recommend to land a big paying job in the summer because that debt is going to be huge.

[erinl2 4965]

45 minutes ago, Relentless2017 said:

Scotiabank increased their PSLOC to 180,000. You should be able to cover tuition and textbooks with that amount, and use OSAP + bursaries (which I hear the average dual student gets about $6000) to pay for living expenses. 

Highly recommend to land a big paying job in the summer because that debt is going to be huge.

Students should think twice (or more!!) before taking on that kind of debt. I cannot think of any scenario where doing that isn't extremely foolish.

[Pyke 3724]

Seriously, the ROI is almost certainly not there (at least based on my observations of the labour market). Strongly consider doing something else.

Edited April 15 by Pyke

[Relentless2017 87]

I'm probably going to get shat on here, but if you really want to be a lawyer, and this is the only school you got into, and you've considered how much debt you're going to get into and are willing to accept that, then do it. The program, from what I heard, is great. The profs, from what I've heard, can be better in the Detroit Mercy side than the Windsor side. If you search up Dual students on LinkedIn, quite a few made it onto Bay St and other promising places (Miller Canfield, etc). 

Think carefully about how much debt you're going to get into, and if you're sure you want to be a lawyer and aren't willing to re-apply, then do it and make sure you do your best to get the grades needed to get the job you want. Only YOU know what you are capable of and the risk you're willing to take, not any of us here. 

[CleanHands 2534]

35 minutes ago, Relentless2017 said:

make sure you do your best to get the grades needed to get the job you want. Only YOU know what you are capable of and the risk you're willing to take, not any of us here. 

You've consistently posted terrible advice on this site and I see you are continuing with the tradition of that.

Reality check: the average law student...is an average law student. Nearly everyone plans on being a Dean's Lister until 1L final grades come out and 90% of the class realizes they need to reassess that. The vast majority of law students enter law school having excelled in school and/or work environments previously, and become used to being the smartest person in the room much of the time. All but a select few are quickly humbled and learn they are not special.

This is all to say: absolutely nobody should go to law school assuming they are going to be at the top of their class, or that they will be able to secure OCI positions or whathaveyou. I would agree with you about doing whatever you can to make it happen (if financially reasonable) if your plan to "be a lawyer." But one needs to be cautious about the line about "get[ting] the job [they] want" if they are dead set on BigLaw, government, elite boutiques, etc. And if "being a lawyer" means doing small town, small shop retail law, then debt load is certainly something they need to take seriously and put a thought towards.

Windsor Dual is expensive AF and has questionable graduate outcomes in light of that investment. Don't assume you are special and will get an exceptional outcome out of this, or that the most successful graduates of the program that you can find are reflective of what you can expect to experience yourself.

Edited April 16 by CleanHands

[Relentless2017 87]

18 hours ago, CleanHands said:

You've consistently posted terrible advice on this site and I see you are continuing with the tradition of that.

Reality check: the average law student...is an average law student. Nearly everyone plans on being a Dean's Lister until 1L final grades come out and 90% of the class realizes they need to reassess that. The vast majority of law students enter law school having excelled in school and/or work environments previously, and become used to being the smartest person in the room much of the time. All but a select few are quickly humbled and learn they are not special.

This is all to say: absolutely nobody should go to law school assuming they are going to be at the top of their class, or that they will be able to secure OCI positions or whathaveyou. I would agree with you about doing whatever you can to make it happen (if financially reasonable) if your plan to "be a lawyer." But one needs to be cautious about the line about "get[ting] the job [they] want" if they are dead set on BigLaw, government, elite boutiques, etc. And if "being a lawyer" means doing small town, small shop retail law, then debt load is certainly something they need to take seriously and put a thought towards.

Windsor Dual is expensive AF and has questionable graduate outcomes in light of that investment. Don't assume you are special and will get an exceptional outcome out of this, or that the most successful graduates of the program that you can find are reflective of what you can expect to experience yourself.

Not quite sure where I said to ignore the financial risk you're taking when entering Windsor Dual - in fact, I said the opposite - you should definitely be aware of the financial risk you're taking and do so only if you are willing to accept that. And if you do, aim to be on the top of the class - never said to assume it and never said there were any guarantees. 

As for bad advice, I don't think I've been giving bad advice. I think you were the one who gave bad advice in that thread where you heavily discouraged others with low gpa to apply to law school, and I encouraged it - and many of the type of students you discouraged actually got in this cycle. But to each their own

[Lawschoolhopeful678 1]

As someone who has only been accepted to Dual thus far and is struggling to find a job, I'm starting to think Dual will be my only shot at pursuing a JD

[Luckycharm 1909]

On 4/15/2021 at 10:19 AM, Relentless2017 said:

Scotiabank increased their PSLOC to 180,000. You should be able to cover tuition and textbooks with that amount, and use OSAP + bursaries (which I hear the average dual student gets about $6000) to pay for living expenses. 

Highly recommend to land a big paying job in the summer because that debt is going to be huge.

Highly recommend to land a big paying job in the summer - unrealistic 

[SadNWO 390]

On 4/16/2021 at 5:06 PM, Relentless2017 said:

Not quite sure where I said to ignore the financial risk you're taking when entering Windsor Dual - in fact, I said the opposite - you should definitely be aware of the financial risk you're taking and do so only if you are willing to accept that. And if you do, aim to be on the top of the class - never said to assume it and never said there were any guarantees. 

As for bad advice, I don't think I've been giving bad advice. I think you were the one who gave bad advice in that thread where you heavily discouraged others with low gpa to apply to law school, and I encouraged it - and many of the type of students you discouraged actually got in this cycle. But to each their own

I think @CleanHands argument, which I agree with, is that incoming students can't really gauge where they fall in the class ranking. Of course everyone aims to be at the top of the class, but for nearly all this will be impossible. Your assertion is, as per your previous comment, that only the applicant knows what they are capable of. I'll add my voice to others in saying that how could one know if they would do well or not? Nearly half the class will be below average and I'd guess many if not all of them believed they would do much better. 

This isn't a topic on which I'm comfortable doling out a "do your best and it'll be OK" platitude. The level of debt, which you acknowledge as significant, is significant enough that the warnings in this thread are justified. 

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:58 AM by SadNWO

[underrated 27]

@CleanHands provides some good advice on what your expectations should be going into law school (you shouldn't have any).

What I've gathered from when I was going through the law school application process, the general consensus among people on this forum, and from 2 years of law school is that there are really only two circumstances in which I'd consider telling someone to pursue Windsor Dual:

1) You have no issue with paying the costs of the program AND it is your only option in Canada/Ontario; or

2) You have exhausted all of your options (including taking an additional cycle(s) to improve your GPA/LSAT/Application) and want nothing more in life than to pursue a law degree. You would need to come to the understanding of how the debt will impact your early years as a lawyer and have a realistic outlook on your options of employment upon graduation.

From your post history your stats seem to be: 3.37 cGPA, 3.71 L2, 157 LSAT. These are far from horrible stats that automatically eliminate you from other law schools. If your L2 is calculated in accrodance to the OLSAS calculation, I would seriously consider rewriting the LSAT. If you can get it to 160+ its not far-fetched to say that you would have a good shot at getting into Western and/or Queens in a future cycle. 

But as always, the choice is yours @Lawschoolhopeful678

Edited Tuesday at 01:28 AM by underrated

[Lawschoolhopeful678 1]

13 minutes ago, underrated said:

@CleanHands provides some good advice on what your expectations should be going into law school (you shouldn't have any).

What I've gathered from when I was going through the law school application process, the general consensus among people on this forum, and from 2 years of law school is that there are really only two circumstances in which I'd consider telling someone to pursue Windsor Dual:

1) You have no issue with paying the costs of the program AND it is your only option in Canada/Ontario; or

2) You have exhausted all of your options (including taking an additional cycle(s) to improve your GPA/LSAT/Application) and want nothing more in life than to pursue a law degree. You would need to come to the understanding of how the debt will impact your early years as a lawyer and have a realistic outlook on your options of employment upon graduation.

From your post history your stats seem to be: 3.37 cGPA, 3.71 L2, 157 LSAT. These are far from horrible stats that automatically eliminate you from other law schools. If your L2 is calculated in accrodance to the OLSAS calculation, I would seriously consider rewriting the LSAT. If you can get it to 160+ its not far-fetched to say that you would have a good shot at getting into Western and/or Queens in a future cycle. 

But as always, the choice is yours @Lawschoolhopeful678

Thank you for your insight!

[moonstuns 0]

23 hours ago, Lawschoolhopeful678 said:

As someone who has only been accepted to Dual thus far and is struggling to find a job, I'm starting to think Dual will be my only shot at pursuing a JD

im in the same boat! reading the threads on here about the financial burden is stressing me out!!! but i have a feeling the dual jd is my only shot here

[applepro1 8]

On 4/15/2021 at 10:19 AM, Relentless2017 said:

Scotiabank increased their PSLOC to 180,000. You should be able to cover tuition and textbooks with that amount, and use OSAP + bursaries (which I hear the average dual student gets about $6000) to pay for living expenses. 

Highly recommend to land a big paying job in the summer because that debt is going to be huge.

Where did you hear about the 180K? A Scotia rep told me its only 160K.