1L with Fall Grades back - need some perspective!

[BirdLawExpert123 2]

Hello all, 

I just recently got my fall grades back and was wondering if I could get some perspective on how they look? I just want to know if I'm off to a good start and how my grades stack against the understanding of average law student grades. It's just so different from undergrad, and all of my peers are obviously so intelligent so I can't help but be a little worried. 

Constitutional Law B+

Contracts B

Crim A

Property  B

Torts A

Public Law B+

Thanks in advance! 

[hmyo 224]

here's your pat on the back.

here's a lollipop.

anything else you want? 

[BirdLawExpert123 2]

1 minute ago, hmyo said:

here's your pat on the back.

here's a lollipop.

anything else you want? 

Haha, I'm assuming this is your way of saying these are good? I mean, obviously I know these aren't bad grades, but I saw a topic elsewhere on this forum where someone with very similar grades was asking about OCIs and some of the comments said that their chances weren't as good, which gave me the impression that grades are expected to be much higher for things like OCIs. I also have not spoken about grades with my peers at all, except for one student who got straight As. This has given me a lot of mixed thoughts about my own grades. Appreciate your contribution nonetheless! 

[TobyFlenderson 189]

Assuming this is a genuine question and not an exercise in self flattery as the poster above seems to suggest, your grades are good. Most law schools curve to a B average, so to get a B makes you an average student. The further away you get from a B, in either direction, the less average you are.

As and B+s are, then, obviously good.

 

Edited following your post: 

I would not take that peer’s claims at face value. 2L OCIs like a B+ average, for BigLaw at least, from my understanding. The 1L recruit is much smaller, so it’s naturally more competitive and I’ve heard secondhand that an A average is ideal.

One piece of advice you’ll find on this forum frequently, though, is not to self-select out of experiences you want. Worst case, you apply and get experience going through the application process.

Edited January 15 by TobyFlenderson

[BringBackCrunchBerries 1089]

26 minutes ago, BirdLawExpert123 said:

I just want to know if I'm off to a good start and how my grades stack against the understanding of average law student grades.

.... do you understand how grades work? 

[BirdLawExpert123 2]

30 minutes ago, TobyFlenderson said:

Assuming this is a genuine question and not an exercise in self flattery as the poster above seems to suggest, your grades are good. Most law schools curve to a B average, so to get a B makes you an average student. The further away you get from a B, in either direction, the less average you are.

As and B+s are, then, obviously good.

 

Edited following your post: 

I would not take that peer’s claims at face value. 2L OCIs like a B+ average, for BigLaw at least, from my understanding. The 1L recruit is much smaller, so it’s naturally more competitive and I’ve heard secondhand that an A average is ideal.

One piece of advice you’ll find on this forum frequently, though, is not to self-select out of experiences you want. Worst case, you apply and get experience going through the application process.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and kind response. I think I came at this with a perfectionist mindset and worked really hard so I was expecting more from myself (this is my way of saying I was hoping for more As). So it’s good to know that a B+ average  is considered good. I will definitely still try for the 1L OCIs and hope for the best. 
 

I wish I could say that student was lying, but he sent me a picture of the actual grades, which is what really sent me on this downward spiral, haha. 
 

I also have to say on a general note that I’m a little surprised at the response here so far(not counting you, TobyFlenderson). As fellow law students/lawyers/law school applicants I think it’s safe to say that we are generally an ambitious group of people with high expectations for ourselves. The grades I received were good but not great. And with such varying information out there, all I wanted was some perspective on how I really should be feeling about these grades. 

[LawBlaw2019 131]

1 hour ago, BirdLawExpert123 said:

I wish I could say that student was lying, but he sent me a picture of the actual grades, which is what really sent me on this downward spiral, haha. 

Sending your peers a picture of your straight A grades is super weird. Completely unnecessary flex. 

Your grades are good, and I say shoot your shot in the upcoming recruit. As @TobyFlenderson suggested there's nothing to lose but much to gain.

1 hour ago, BirdLawExpert123 said:

I also have to say on a general note that I’m a little surprised at the response here so far(not counting you, TobyFlenderson). 

Sometimes the users on this site get frustrated by seeing the same kinds of posts and may loop you in with others users who previously posed similar questions but seemed to have less pure intentions. Try not to take it personally. 

[JohnStuartHobbes 188]

1 hour ago, BirdLawExpert123 said:

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and kind response. I think I came at this with a perfectionist mindset and worked really hard so I was expecting more from myself (this is my way of saying I was hoping for more As). So it’s good to know that a B+ average  is considered good. I will definitely still try for the 1L OCIs and hope for the best. 
 

I wish I could say that student was lying, but he sent me a picture of the actual grades, which is what really sent me on this downward spiral, haha. 
 

I also have to say on a general note that I’m a little surprised at the response here so far(not counting you, TobyFlenderson). As fellow law students/lawyers/law school applicants I think it’s safe to say that we are generally an ambitious group of people with high expectations for ourselves. The grades I received were good but not great. And with such varying information out there, all I wanted was some perspective on how I really should be feeling about these grades. 

Your grades probably put you in the top 20%-40% of you class. Good enough for the 2L recruit but it will make an SCC clerkship more challenging to obtain if your grades remain the same. Beyond that, no one can tell you how well you did.

Edited January 15 by JohnStuartHobbes

[JimmyMcGill 39]

Hey @birdlawexpert "the path to justice is rarely smooth."

But seriously, stahp taking yourself so seriously. You did really well, congratulations, don't be the bird crapping on your head.

All of this is obviously assuming you're actually down on yourself and not just fishing for compliments.

If you want compliments, go 'head, brag, you've earned it. Congratulations.

[philosophymajor 15]

Dont listen to anyone with "Hobbes" in their name unless you want to get a dark picture of human existence. In all seriousness, the OP is likely higher up in the class than the top 20-40%, and you can find out how well you did by speaking with your professors and administrators. Well done! 

[Leviosaar 12]

2 hours ago, BirdLawExpert123 said:

Hello all, 

I just recently got my fall grades back and was wondering if I could get some perspective on how they look? I just want to know if I'm off to a good start and how my grades stack against the understanding of average law student grades. It's just so different from undergrad, and all of my peers are obviously so intelligent so I can't help but be a little worried. 

Constitutional Law B+

Contracts B

Crim A

Property  B

Torts A

Public Law B+

Thanks in advance! 

If you want to know how your grades stack against the average law student (at your school), you should look around for your school’s GPA distributions. At Osgoode this information was available on the back of our transcripts. Assuming you dont have a transcript, you can ask someone at your school (ask whatever the equivalent of academic services office is at your school - the people that handle academics and grades stuff) for the GPA distribution. You could also ask an upper year for it. Where your grades stack against other students is a pretty straightforward mathematical calculation and the people on this forum probably do not have the data from your school to answer that question for you, unless they’re from your school.

 

Note that the GPA distribution does not necessarily map perfectly onto the grades distribution for individual courses.

Edited January 15 by Leviosaar

[capitalttruth 655]

What's your secret?

[JohnStuartHobbes 188]

32 minutes ago, philosophymajor said:

Dont listen to anyone with "Hobbes" in their name unless you want to get a dark picture of human existence. In all seriousness, the OP is likely higher up in the class than the top 20-40%, and you can find out how well you did by speaking with your professors and administrators. Well done! 

Eh, better than top 40% for sure but not much better than top 20%, especially depending on the school. Law school grades are screwed highly where a small percent of the students get most of the top grades - it’s not a standard distribution. In law school, I spent too much time running numbers to estimate a 3.4 GPA to be about the top 33% of the class. I’d estimate OP as being top 15%-35% of the class but no better and probably no worse (Depending on the school)

Edited January 15 by JohnStuartHobbes

[JohnStuartHobbes 188]

47 minutes ago, philosophymajor said:

Dont listen to anyone with "Hobbes" in their name unless you want to get a dark picture of human existence. In all seriousness, the OP is likely higher up in the class than the top 20-40%, and you can find out how well you did by speaking with your professors and administrators. Well done! 

Let’s build a model.

Let’s assume that if you get an A, 0% of people got a better grade, if you got a B+ then 20% got a better grade, and if you got a B, then 50% got a better grade. Let’s also assume that all classes have the same weight. Let’s also assume there is no endogeneity in that good students are not more likely to get good grades.

Based on these assumptions, the mean percentile of OP’s grades puts him not much higher than 25% of his classmates. I personally think this is generous given the assumptions I made but so be it. 

Building back into the model the endogeneity problem in that students who get As usually get more As, OP likely is very likely not in the top 25% of his/her class.

If you see any problems in this model, let me know but I think it’s fairly accurate to predict a high end estimate one’s class rank.

 

[Mal 2656]

You're in good shape for OCI. Keep working hard, you're on the right track.

[FoodBankFred 167]

On 1/14/2021 at 8:32 PM, BirdLawExpert123 said:

 

I wish I could say that student was lying, but he sent me a picture of the actual grades, which is what really sent me on this downward spiral, haha. 

Okay, you've got a lot of good feedback in this thread. I believe as long as you have a B+ or higher average in any given year you've excelled at law school.

But I want to talk about the point I've quoted you on above. The fellow with the picture of his grades. Keep in mind some people are very deviant, and that it takes less than one minute to fabricate a "picture" of grades that cannot be distinguished from the real deal. 

[BirdLawExpert123 2]

I appreciate the kind responses! I guess I didn't consider how often questions like these must get asked on the forum. so i understand why people may have been irritated. And I truly appreciate the perspective. Feels nice to know I did relatively well, even if I didn't believe it at the time. 

Also just a note regarding my peer with straight A's - i do not see any malicious intent or any reason he would lie about his grades, so no hard feelings there! We all worked very hard as a group and from what I've seen he's just naturally that smart. And honestly, if I got straight As my first term in law school, I'd want to shout from the rooftops haha. I'm truly happy for him and proud of him. Honestly I think my own perfectionism got the best of me at the time I made this post. I also may have been the tiniest bit jealous 😅

Oh well, cheers everyone! Thanks again.