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What are the most diverse law schools?

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7 minutes ago, Diplock said:

Well, quite simply, there are a lot of professional environments out there where you may not find a lot of diversity, and certainly not a lot of South Asians. And it may not have anything to do with less than positive values or culture. It may be a community where there simply isn't a lot of diversity. It may be a firm that doesn't happen to have a lot of it traditionally, along the vectors you're looking for. Imagine a firm, for example, that was mainly Jewish for a couple of generations in the past. You can't really argue with their tendency to work within their own cultural group right - you've just endorsed that this makes sense to you. So maybe now they're looking to expand outwards, but you're one of the first.

Most particularly - this is an issue that's on my radar but not on many students', because they imagine large large firms - you need to remember that many, many legal jobs occur in smaller office environments. It's part of the reality that "small business" collectively accounts for a huge slice of the workforce. In a small office, there may simply not be a lot of diversity due to the rule of small numbers.

So, my point is simply this. At the start of your legal career, you probably don't know much about where you might end up or even want to end up in terms of practice area. Maybe you want a government job, or to work as a Crown. The Crown's office as a whole is often very diverse. But not if you need to take your first job in Timmins in order to get in there.

Anyway, I didn't intend to write at such length, but I appreciate this discussion is already going semi-sideways. I don't want to be an entitled white guy on this topic, failing to understand how and why someone from a racialized background would want to find diversity in their environments. The Jewish example above wasn't flippant. Today, you hear from people who want Jewish lawyers (I won't unpack those assumptions here) but just a generation or two ago Jews were discriminated against significantly in the workforce, so their tendency to form distinctly Jewish law firms and practices was understandable. But of course today those forces are seen in different groups.

At the same time, leaving aside the privilege and potential cluelessness on my part, there's also valid information you may want to consider in the future, and hopefully I've managed to add some context to that.

Nowhere did I mention I am ONLY limiting myself to diverse places. I just said I have a strong preference for diversity, which is why I am trying my best to go to a diverse school.

I totally understand what you're trying to get at tho

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OP: "hey know any law schools that have people from my background?"

really smart lawyers, law school students & applicants: "why do you want to start a race war?"

🙃

 

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14 minutes ago, Diplock said:

Well, quite simply, there are a lot of professional environments out there where you may not find a lot of diversity, and certainly not a lot of South Asians. And it may not have anything to do with less than positive values or culture. It may be a community where there simply isn't a lot of diversity. It may be a firm that doesn't happen to have a lot of it traditionally, along the vectors you're looking for. Imagine a firm, for example, that was mainly Jewish for a couple of generations in the past. You can't really argue with their tendency to work within their own cultural group right - you've just endorsed that this makes sense to you. So maybe now they're looking to expand outwards, but you're one of the first.

Most particularly - this is an issue that's on my radar but not on many students', because they imagine large large firms - you need to remember that many, many legal jobs occur in smaller office environments. It's part of the reality that "small business" collectively accounts for a huge slice of the workforce. In a small office, there may simply not be a lot of diversity due to the rule of small numbers.

So, my point is simply this. At the start of your legal career, you probably don't know much about where you might end up or even want to end up in terms of practice area. Maybe you want a government job, or to work as a Crown. The Crown's office as a whole is often very diverse. But not if you need to take your first job in Timmins in order to get in there.

Anyway, I didn't intend to write at such length, but I appreciate this discussion is already going semi-sideways. I don't want to be an entitled white guy on this topic, failing to understand how and why someone from a racialized background would want to find diversity in their environments. The Jewish example above wasn't flippant. Today, you hear from people who want Jewish lawyers (I won't unpack those assumptions here) but just a generation or two ago Jews were discriminated against significantly in the workforce, so their tendency to form distinctly Jewish law firms and practices was understandable. But of course today those forces are seen in different groups.

At the same time, leaving aside the privilege and potential cluelessness on my part, there's also valid information you may want to consider in the future, and hopefully I've managed to add some context to that.

I think this is something that's perfectly relevant from a practical perspective. I don't think you're being an entitled white guy. We all have to consider the realities of the workforce and make choices that are both practical and align with our values. 

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10 minutes ago, lolschool said:

OP: "hey know any law schools that have people from my background?"

really smart lawyers, law school students & applicants: "why do you want to start a race war?"

🙃

 

Exactly mate

Im not sure why some people are getting so triggered that i value diversity

 

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Just now, DeepThree02 said:

 

Im not sure why some people are getting so triggered that i value diversity

 

And THAT’S ^ the tea 

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In Ontario, the schools with the largest South Asian populations are Windsor, Ottawa, and Osgoode. U of T groups "Asian" all in one category, but a significant portion of that are East Asians. Data from Ryerson has not been released yet, but from what I am seeing on LinkedIn, there are many South Asians and other people of colour in the program. 

However, don't turn down a fantastic law school just because it may have less diversity than another school. If you get into U of T, you wouldn't turn this down for Windsor just because Windsor has a larger South Asian population, no? You can always interact with other South Asians outside of law school. Law school is a once in a lifetime opportunity and a chance for you to come out of your comfort zone and broaden your horizons. It is also an imitation of the job market I have noticed where you may end up working with an employer that does not have a lot of diversity (I've this with many boutiques, Big law, government, and in-house employers). Would you turn down these excellent opportunities just because you are not comfortable operating in a less diverse setting? Importantly, you will have to engage with many of these people in the interview process. If you've only surrounded yourself with South Asians, it could prove difficult to come out of that bubble and speak to people that are different from you. Certainly, diversity is important, but don't limit this to just the South Asian population. I would also consider other factors such as finances, location, course selection, clinicals, job prospects, etc. 

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35 minutes ago, Diplock said:

Well, quite simply, there are a lot of professional environments out there where you may not find a lot of diversity, and certainly not a lot of South Asians. And it may not have anything to do with less than positive values or culture. It may be a community where there simply isn't a lot of diversity. It may be a firm that doesn't happen to have a lot of it traditionally, along the vectors you're looking for. Imagine a firm, for example, that was mainly Jewish for a couple of generations in the past. You can't really argue with their tendency to work within their own cultural group right - you've just endorsed that this makes sense to you. So maybe now they're looking to expand outwards, but you're one of the first.

Most particularly - this is an issue that's on my radar but not on many students', because they imagine large large firms - you need to remember that many, many legal jobs occur in smaller office environments. It's part of the reality that "small business" collectively accounts for a huge slice of the workforce. In a small office, there may simply not be a lot of diversity due to the rule of small numbers.

So, my point is simply this. At the start of your legal career, you probably don't know much about where you might end up or even want to end up in terms of practice area. Maybe you want a government job, or to work as a Crown. The Crown's office as a whole is often very diverse. But not if you need to take your first job in Timmins in order to get in there.

Anyway, I didn't intend to write at such length, but I appreciate this discussion is already going semi-sideways. I don't want to be an entitled white guy on this topic, failing to understand how and why someone from a racialized background would want to find diversity in their environments. The Jewish example above wasn't flippant. Today, you hear from people who want Jewish lawyers (I won't unpack those assumptions here) but just a generation or two ago Jews were discriminated against significantly in the workforce, so their tendency to form distinctly Jewish law firms and practices was understandable. But of course today those forces are seen in different groups.

At the same time, leaving aside the privilege and potential cluelessness on my part, there's also valid information you may want to consider in the future, and hopefully I've managed to add some context to that.

Good points are made with good intentions, but I feel that OP and a few other applicants in this thread are not ready to hear this yet simply because they lack the real life experiences of attending a law school and finding a law job necessary to understand this advice in context. As well, mere number and proportion of non-white students in the student population do not necessarily reduce the implicit/explicit pressure of performing whiteness in many, many social situations that non-white students often feel. It's part and parcel of being a racialized first-generation law student in many geographic areas/practice areas. And speaking from personal experience, even though people of colour all need to perform whiteness in many different situations in daily life, performing whiteness in the legal profession is an exercise in a league of its own and for the time being, I don't think there's any way out but through.

That said, OP, student-run organizations at law schools can make a positive difference in providing robust and helpful support systems when addressing these challenges. If racial diversity is important to you, I would recommend checking out any publicly available information about those ethnicity-based student groups focused on promoting equity at different law schools, and see which ones stand out to you. That should provide some solid qualitative data to supplement the statistics you've been linked. As a UofT student, I'm a big admirer of the work that our ALS (Asia Law Society), SALSA (South Asian Law Student Society) and BLSA (Black Law Student Association) have been doing.

Edited by cherrytree
cleaned this up a bit
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SO to the peeps like me that are whiter than bleached snow, but still wanna contribute positively

Happy Parks And Recreation GIF

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5 minutes ago, Portzy said:

SO to the peeps like me that are whiter than bleached snow, but still wanna contribute positively

Happy Parks And Recreation GIF

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I jumped in with two feet anyway. I could see the whole thing going sideways and I think I pulled it less sideways. Hasn't been locked yet, so that's something. But yeah.

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OP, I think it is completely fair that you would be interested in a diverse class. I regret that many seem to be taking offence to your question. 

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1 hour ago, Toby1994 said:

It’s also important to me to work in queer friendly spaces...and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to work in a space where there’s a commitment to racial diversity as well? Which is what OP’s question was regarding? I’ll also point out, regarding OP limiting their future career possibilities...no where did they say that they would write off a school or job if it didn’t operate in a very diverse space. They are just prioritizing diversity, which is obviously a value to them. I think it’s a little premature to issue warnings regarding career limitations, when the OP is just inquiring which schools exemplify one of their values. 

...you absolutely missed my point that was directed at Diplock, thus my direct reply to him. I agree with you, Toby, and that was literally what I said. To Diplock. And told him to do EDI hours.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, artsydork said:

...you absolutely missed my point that was directed at Diplock, thus my direct reply to him. I agree with you, Toby, and that was literally what I said. To Diplock. And told him to do EDI hours.

 

 

Oh, my bad if I came off like I was disagreeing with you! I was emphasizing your point by quoting it and attempting to show that I feel the same as you :) The rest of my post was aimed towards others who felt differently. 

Edited by Toby1994
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2 hours ago, artsydork said:

Many people have this concern going into practice. I made sure to find a queer friendly firm. Many lawyers do this/seek this. 

I feel you should probably go do your EDI hours, and speak to the criminal defence lawyers of colour near you about their experiences.

You know, I'm really not here to make this into an argument. Though considering the OP's questionably good-faith in starting the thread initially, maybe there's no other purpose to this now. But I'm honestly not even sure what I'm being called out for.

You say this sort of priority can be important to people. I don't disagree with either that statement as truth, or with someone choosing to have this priority when they have it. I was explicitly clear I'm not questioning anyone's priorities.

Then I stated something of my own as truth. That this priority - however or whyever it may be held - will be limiting. You haven't disagreed with that statement either.

Then you told me to do more training. Which is honestly a recommendation that I go and get my ideology corrected by more sensitive people than I am. As in, fuck you and your regressive beliefs, but you know, politely.

What the holy fuck did I even do that bothered you aside from stating a truth that you would prefer not to be true?

We agree on the facts. And if you think I need to be ideologically corrected in terms of pretending that true things aren't true just to make people feel more comfortable, I could argue that you need to be professionally retrained into acknowledging that true things remain true regardless of whether they suck or not, and regardless of your feelings about them, and our jobs as lawyers often involves dealing with true things even when we don't like that they are true.

I chose to ignore this the first time. But telling me to go get better training is fucking obnoxious. I've never yet had EDI hours that encouraged me to ignore truth just because it was uncomfortable truth. And even if I had that training, speaking as someone who has delivered CPD myself, I'm not under any illusions that crediting someone with the ability to train others makes their opinions superior in some absolute way. Ideology remains ideology even when it's given a gloss of legitimacy by forcing other people to listen to it and calling it "training." And any ideology that requires me to pretend something isn't true just to make people feel better about the world, rather than dealing with truth and helping them function in the world, is stupid and irresponsible. And antithetical to good lawyering.

Edited by Diplock
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2 hours ago, DeepThree02 said:

Honestly, its not just schools, but a city that is super diverse where i want to practice.

Diversity is extremely important to me as a person of color (if you're white- obviously you wont understand why I value diversity or not), but I do understand what you mean by not confining myself

What an idiotic statement.

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