Jump to content
Designated1

What’s it like now ?

Recommended Posts

Hello Everyone,

Very long time ago, above 10+ years ago, I was a young 24 years old man with BBA and wanted to steer my career towards being a lawyer.

Making a long story short, my LSAT wasn’t quite up to par as i would often feel anxiety with standardized test and it quite honestly the score discouraged it. I felt defeated and gave up on wanting to be a lawyer. Years go by, for better or worse, i started my own business and i am very happy with it and have great earning now and for future as well.

COVID helped me put things in perspective that perhaps it wouldn’t be a bad idea to consider going to law school at 35.. Perhaps not best decision but with some downtime i took the LSAT and scored 169.  

 

At this point in life, making such drastic move to going to school means significant loss of income, let alone increased family responsibilities and age ( i am simply not 25 anymore and far more forgetful).

 

Short answer and help i need to better understand following please:

-  How is law now from saturation stand point in securing job opportunities ?

- Lucrative areas of law that pay and on average what can a lawyer expect ?

- Working for DT firms OR own practice (i.e. from financial earnings)

 

While you consider answering this, please understand and respect with someone at this life stage, earning potential and range is very important factor for me in considering this.

I have seen an influx of great foreign trained lawyers in Ontario, many who are in independent practice closing real estate deals. I would generalize in 3 categories with these earning potentials (1) Indepepdents $ 100k to $ 300k  (2) Downtown Big Firm associates, $ 200k to $ 350k, $350k+ you can entering to be partner potentially and (3) Working Corporate (i.e. employed as Legal Cousel) $ 90k to $ 160k.

 

 

Again, this is based on real life examples from my current business so much of information i am basing this, is from experience and first hand. But want to make sure examples i have witnessed are a good re presentation of what’s actually out there... Of course, all this is under assumption that admission is offered.

 

Please and thank you

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Business is always tough to predict, comfortably I think $ 250k to $ 300k. Theres years where I've been able to manage high $ 500s too.

I'd like to think granted I am working hard and putting in hours (which on average I work minimum 10 hours a day), I can at least keep same level of income for my family...because our expensive are also relative to it now.

Just curious more do I have the range above morellos in line or am I off ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do you want to be a lawyer? You seem to be doing great without a law degree - better than most people who have a law degree.

11 hours ago, Designated1 said:

How is law now from saturation stand point in securing job opportunities ?

If you graduate from a Canadian school and are at least a median student, you should be able to secure a job before graduating. If you're below median, you'll still secure a job but it might be a few months later than your classmates.

11 hours ago, Designated1 said:

Working for DT firms OR own practice (i.e. from financial earnings)

I personally wouldn't start my own practice out of the gate. If you wanted to run your own practice down the road, I would work at an existing firm, build up a good reputation, client base, referral sources, etc. then start your own practice using the good will you've already established. To me, this strategy mitigates the initial risks you'd otherwise face. Those initial risks are probably magnified by the fact that you have family responsibilities, if you were single/had no kids the risks wouldn't be so scary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input.

COVID has given me an interesting perspective. I have been very fortunate to do what I do and manage a decent life, but business is always shifting, for better or for worse no one knows. It is also true that having a law degree has similar risk and doesn't decrease per say, however I remember growing up that any type of education one gets, will always someone how pays its dividends... for a law degree for me would be to have business manage by family on side, until I look to get to same income levels in it and hopefully count on something more permanent.

With a professional degree, I would always have some level of backup support wherein business its as good as it operates...

 

ALSO +1 to the thread, any mature students that have gotten their degree part time at all  that can share their experiences ?

thanks again to everyone in helping me better evaluate this option for future. I understand now why they say go to school while you are young! :)

 

52 minutes ago, canuckfanatic said:

Why do you want to be a lawyer? You seem to be doing great without a law degree - better than most people who have a law degree.

If you graduate from a Canadian school and are at least a median student, you should be able to secure a job before graduating. If you're below median, you'll still secure a job but it might be a few months later than your classmates.

I personally wouldn't start my own practice out of the gate. If you wanted to run your own practice down the road, I would work at an existing firm, build up a good reputation, client base, referral sources, etc. then start your own practice using the good will you've already established. To me, this strategy mitigates the initial risks you'd otherwise face. Those initial risks are probably magnified by the fact that you have family responsibilities, if you were single/had no kids the risks wouldn't be so scary.

51 minutes ago, canuckfanatic said:

Why do you want to be a lawyer? You seem to be doing great without a law degree - better than most people who have a law degree.

If you graduate from a Canadian school and are at least a median student, you should be able to secure a job before graduating. If you're below median, you'll still secure a job but it might be a few months later than your classmates.

I personally wouldn't start my own practice out of the gate. If you wanted to run your own practice down the road, I would work at an existing firm, build up a good reputation, client base, referral sources, etc. then start your own practice using the good will you've already established. To me, this strategy mitigates the initial risks you'd otherwise face. Those initial risks are probably magnified by the fact that you have family responsibilities, if you were single/had no kids the risks wouldn't be so scary.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Designated1 said:

Business is always tough to predict, comfortably I think $ 250k to $ 300k. Theres years where I've been able to manage high $ 500s too.

jfc do not go to law school

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Designated1 said:

for a law degree for me would be to have business manage by family on side, until I look to get to same income levels in it and hopefully count on something more permanent.

The time you spend on law school for "stability" or "permanence" would almost certainly be better spent on your business in the long run. 

I don't think anyone who has gone to law school would have done so if they were in your position. Very few lawyers make what you're making, and for those that do it took them years to get there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Designated1 said:

Business is always tough to predict, comfortably I think $ 250k to $ 300k. Theres years where I've been able to manage high $ 500s too.

I'd like to think granted I am working hard and putting in hours (which on average I work minimum 10 hours a day), I can at least keep same level of income for my family...because our expensive are also relative to it now.

Just curious more do I have the range above morellos in line or am I off ?

It's hard to imagine going to law school being anything but a terrible financial move for you. Most lawyers never approach that type of money. 

It might only make sense if you are, say, slinging cocaine right now or doing some other type of "business" that is likely to vanish overnight if you keep doing it. 

Being a lawyer is not a meal ticket to your current income level. Far from it, actually. It's a competitive field. There are some people who struggle to find articling positions or associate positions. 

Your salary estimates for lawyers are probably off by a little bit. There are independent practitioners who make less than $100,000. Some make a lot less. It's true that a good number of people doing solicitor work are over six figures, but it's not a given. Your range for "downtown big firm associates" is also excluding the starting point. On Bay street I believe associates start at around $110k and $200k is the normal ~6th year salary.

Anyway, don't go to law school. lol. 

Edited by BringBackCrunchBerries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Designated1 said:

I remember growing up that any type of education one gets, will always someone how pays its dividends...

This is the type of mindset that compels people to spend $300K on a Cooley degree. It's an outdated, dangerous and often predatory mantra.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Designated1 said:

Business is always tough to predict, comfortably I think $ 250k to $ 300k. Theres years where I've been able to manage high $ 500s too.

The median salary of a Canadian Lawyer is ~103,000 CAD, which is less than half what you made at your lowest range. I think the biggest question you should ask yourself is whether you'll be happier as a Lawyer. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, canuckfanatic said:

The time you spend on law school for "stability" or "permanence" would almost certainly be better spent on your business in the long run. 

I don't think anyone who has gone to law school would have done so if they were in your position. Very few lawyers make what you're making, and for those that do it took them years to get there. 

 

Thanks for the honest input.  It took me quite some years to get to this point and I am thankful to those around me who support me in being able to earn what I do. 

its discouraging to see that it takes that long for someone to go through rigorous grad schooling to then earn this.  I was hoping that the stability would rather is around the same figure but of course doesn't seem immediately.

1 hour ago, Tagger said:

This is the type of mindset that compels people to spend $300K on a Cooley degree. It's an outdated, dangerous and often predatory mantra.  

 

I hear you...While I can't comment on quality of education at Cooley (Thomas Cooley I assume you mean), the mantra is generally to suggest that education/learning/experience will not go to waste an will pay dividends. I am sure those going to this Cooley, must also gain some experiences that are add some value... 300k sounds too much particularly when quality and reputation of institution is often questioned. 

1 hour ago, Ichigo said:

The median salary of a Canadian Lawyer is ~103,000 CAD, which is less than half what you made at your lowest range. I think the biggest question you should ask yourself is whether you'll be happier as a Lawyer. 

 

You bring up an interesting good thought, of being happy. 10 years back, I would have comfortably said "yes, or id like to think so"...whether the happiness comes from actual job, money or fulfilling passion. At my age, staying practical is more crucial than to appease any passion at this time.   If I can keep the same lifestyle for myself and family, id say yes... I would happy and would enjoy the job as a lawyer... that said, I am not sure how long it'll take me to reach there financial, let alone loss of income.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't go to law school, it'd be the equivalent of lighting millions of dollar on fire.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BringBackCrunchBerries said:

It's hard to imagine going to law school being anything but a terrible financial move for you. Most lawyers never approach that type of money. 

It might only make sense if you are, say, slinging cocaine right now or doing some other type of "business" that is likely to vanish overnight if you keep doing it. 

Being a lawyer is not a meal ticket to your current income level. Far from it, actually. It's a competitive field. There are some people who struggle to find articling positions or associate positions. 

Your salary estimates for lawyers are probably off by a little bit. There are independent practitioners who make less than $100,000. Some make a lot less. It's true that a good number of people doing solicitor work are over six figures, but it's not a given. Your range for "downtown big firm associates" is also excluding the starting point. On Bay street I believe associates start at around $110k and $200k is the normal ~6th year salary.

Anyway, don't go to law school. lol. 

Frankly my fear is exactly whether financially it'll make sense as I do have family relying on me financially. Of course, I can manage through law school via savings and part time management of my work, but expect to rise better if not same level financially.

Terrible thing to potentially base these decision on being finances, but again, practically I need to consider this as well.

Thanks for clarifying the ranges of incomes.

My business is an investment consulting firm where we manage money and invest (many different places from portfolio management to different real estate assets) for professionals and individuals such as lawyers, doctors, and business owners.  The clients I have come across few lawyers were generally in those ranges so I assumed as such, but those might just been "very few" bucket that was brought. COVID made me realize while great years I was fortunate to make great money, the down side was quite significant where investments were depleted and that's what got me thinking.... Not to say the impact of similar instance will not impact lawyers, but somewhere along the lines, I felt there was some level or stability with it.

 

Perhaps the opportunity cost or risk is far too high, and not worth while to wager as there are financial responsibilities I have towards my family.

 

Lots to think about but I appreciate everyone of you to kindly, politely and honestly giving me a perspective.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Designated1 said:

Frankly my fear is exactly whether financially it'll make sense as I do have family relying on me financially. Of course, I can manage through law school via savings and part time management of my work, but expect to rise better if not same level financially.

Your expectations are wrong and if your concern is whether "financially it'll make sense," we can tell you it absolutely would not make sense financially. If that is your primary consideration you shouldn't be giving law school another thought. Everyone in this thread is telling you this, but you're not listening.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cannot answer your questions directly, as I am not familiar with the earning potential of lawyers.

However, you have my moral support. 😃

I am also old, a business owner, and I have a family that relies on my income.

Do it for what you feel you would enjoy doing. If you don't feel you would enjoy law school and a legal career, don't do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/15/2020 at 7:01 PM, Designated1 said:

Frankly my fear is exactly whether financially it'll make sense as I do have family relying on me financially. Of course, I can manage through law school via savings and part time management of my work, but expect to rise better if not same level financially.

Terrible thing to potentially base these decision on being finances, but again, practically I need to consider this as well.

Thanks for clarifying the ranges of incomes.

My business is an investment consulting firm where we manage money and invest (many different places from portfolio management to different real estate assets) for professionals and individuals such as lawyers, doctors, and business owners.  The clients I have come across few lawyers were generally in those ranges so I assumed as such, but those might just been "very few" bucket that was brought. COVID made me realize while great years I was fortunate to make great money, the down side was quite significant where investments were depleted and that's what got me thinking.... Not to say the impact of similar instance will not impact lawyers, but somewhere along the lines, I felt there was some level or stability with it.

 

Perhaps the opportunity cost or risk is far too high, and not worth while to wager as there are financial responsibilities I have towards my family.

 

Lots to think about but I appreciate everyone of you to kindly, politely and honestly giving me a perspective.

 

I think your anecdotal data would be skewed by the fact that you are only looking at those who have the finances to engage an investment consulting firm.  I'm sure a ton of lawyers are not in a position to consider that.  I think you probably realize that now. 

Sounds to me like you are not, at the moment, 100% happy with where you are at and you are allowing the law to become the solution to your current feelings.  I say that because I recently went through a similar experience but just kept plugging away and got out the other side. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Recent Posts

    • I submitted 2 academic and 1 professional and saw that there were only two showing on the online application (1 ac 1 pro) so emailed them and they said it was just their system and all had been received! 
    • Thank you! When I made the post I was freaking out but I feel a little better now. I'm remembering all those PTs I thought I bombed but ended up doing great on. The only bad thing is that I guessed on 2 RC questions because I ran out of time. I applied to Windsor, Ottawa, Osgoode, Queen's, Western, UBC (doubtful unless I rock LSAT), McGill and U of T (also extremely unlikely lol). 
    • Your LSAT is above the mean for Queens and your B2 is either at or slightly below the mean as well. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if you got admitted this cycle.    Where else did you apply?   A 163 LSAT is solid by the way    
    • not good, that's why I need a phenomenal LSAT. CGPA is 3.33 but much higher (around 3.65-3.7) when considering UBC's drops and Queen's B2. I was waitlisted at Western and Osgoode last year. I might just keep the score and go back to school in the summer to take a few courses. My problem is that my performance went down in third/fourth year rather than first year so I feel like I need to prove my academic ability some how even if it does not hugely influence my overall GPA. idk though honestly. I don't think I bombed the LSAT but I dont think I got a 165-172 like my PTs.   EDIT: by taking a few courses I mean accept that I likely won't get in this year, target next year's cycle

×
×
  • Create New...