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0Lawschool2020

What will you do if classes end up being online for fall 2021?

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I'm hoping it'll be less competitive . Don't see how most people will even come up with the money , if even able to borrow it. 

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I actually think the increase in LSAT is because of how it is easier, more convenient (at home) and an overall shorter test. Plus they removed the re-take limit until August so the increase is expected. Regarding how applications will fare its anyone's guess. Usually though in economic downturns applications to graduate schools go up (Look @ 2008). Thought MBA is the one that gets the biggest bump so does law school. However, this economic downturn is unlike any other. With recessions and depressions you can go to school for 2-3 years and when you come out the economy's recovered. However, with this Covid the end is not clear. My advice to myself (based on the great advice of people on this forum) is don't worry and carry on doing your best.

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11 hours ago, many2021 said:

I agree with MountainMon too. I also think that because the May June July Aug LSAT do not count into the retake limit. so people can take it and like what you said the flex make it easier for people to take the test. so i am not surprise the number of total test taker increase. In addition, i agree that with this economy situation who wants to take that kind of debt if they already struggle with the job market or just finish their undergrad. it will take them forever to pay back. For those that are not living in the GTA, the cost of living (housing) is quite high. If you are lucky get admitted to U of T ($35,000/yr) + living in downtown condo by yourself (start $2000/m), there is no way any kind of loan can pay for that for 3 years. I am hoping it is going to be less competitive for this cycle. :)

 

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@FirstGear

I'm hoping it'll be less competitive . Don't see how most people will even come up with the money , if even able to borrow it. 

UofT has a deal with Scotiabank and TD so students can take out a line of credit for 160-180k. For all other law schools, banks will let you take out an loc for 100-120k. The banks do this for pretty much anyone who has decent credit and is taking a professional degree with high earning projections (so, lawyers, doctors, dentists, etc). UofT also covers all of the interest for you while you're in law school so it's effectively a 0% interest loan until you graduate. So I don't think most people who get into UofT need to be worried about how they're going to pay for it 😕

Edited by 0Lawschool2020
added FirstGear's quote

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On 10/2/2020 at 12:35 PM, MountainMon said:

If you look at the Canada-relevant LSAT numbers for the 20/21 cycle from June - Dec (presumably when the majority of applicants for the following fall take the LSAT) it seems LSAT takes are up from 103,442 in 19/20 to 116425 in 20/21. So that's closer to 10%... as of right now. Currently the Jan (last truly relevant LSAT date for Canadian schools) and Feb (only relevant for some schools) registrations are way down and for all we know could level out that 10% difference eventually. It's important to note that there are simply waaay more Americans taking the LSAT than Canadians and their schools accept later LSATs to my knowledge so that could do all sorts of wacky things to the data. It's also important that there are a variety of factors that could contribute to people taking the test earlier than usual (ie for the 2021/22 cycle) like increased flexibility from online classes, the new ability to cancel scores retroactively for first time test takers, etc. I guess we'll know when the new class profiles and medians come out in a year or two whether there was any significant increase in scores. For me, there are just too many unknowns to say that there will be 30% more applicants to Canadian law schools even if one extrapolates from the American data.

In any event I am very doubtful that a global pandemic and reality of online school is encouraging anyone to consider taking on 5-6 figure debt for online law school.    

Yeah, those are fair points. This pandemic definitely provides a unique circumstance. It'll be interesting to look at the applications data when all is said and done. 

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13 hours ago, 0Lawschool2020 said:

UofT has a deal with Scotiabank and TD so students can take out a line of credit for 160-180k. For all other law schools, banks will let you take out an loc for 100-120k. The banks do this for pretty much anyone who has decent credit and is taking a professional degree with high earning projections (so, lawyers, doctors, dentists, etc). UofT also covers all of the interest for you while you're in law school so it's effectively a 0% interest loan until you graduate. So I don't think most people who get into UofT need to be worried about how they're going to pay for it 😕

A loan of $108,000 for three years of tuition is still $108,000 of borrowed money, interest or not. If you add $2000 a month for rent, that number hits $180,000. Unless their parents are paying for it, I'm pretty sure UofT students are still concerned about whether they're going to make that back. 

Even if LOCs provide a great opportunity to pay up-front, the debt is still a huge barrier. I applied to many of the cheaper schools and the debt I'll have from those places remains a concern for me. While the pandemic might make some people decide to go to law school where they might not have otherwise, many others are going to look at the current and projected economic conditions and nope out. And that's not an unreasonable response. 

Edited by lh22

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56 minutes ago, lh22 said:

A loan of $108,000 for three years of tuition is still $108,000 of borrowed money, interest or not. If you add $2000 a month for rent, that number hits $180,000. Unless their parents are paying for it, I'm pretty sure UofT students are still concerned about whether they're going to make that back. 

Even if LOCs provide a great opportunity to pay up-front, the debt is still a huge barrier. I applied to many of the cheaper schools and the debt I'll have from those places remains a concern for me. While the pandemic might make some people decide to go to law school where they might not have otherwise, many others are going to look at the current and projected economic conditions and nope out. And that's not an unreasonable response. 

I'm wondering how willing banks will be to lend money. Many people have had their financial situation and credit crushed by Covid-19 , including myself after being in the workforce and a business owner for the last 7 years . With bad credit records lasting 6 years there's no easy way to start over soon either. I went from $132,000 annual income to insolvent . 

Edited by FirstGear

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9 minutes ago, FirstGear said:

I'm wondering how willing banks will be to lend money. Many people have had their financial situation and credit crushed by Covid-19 , including myself after being in the workforce and a business owner for the last 7 years . With bad credit records lasting 6 years there's no easy way to start over soon either. I went from $132,000 annual income to insolvent . 

I've been working in a financial institution that is the go to for most students for professional line of credits and though I don't directly work as a financial advisor, I've seen funding cut for even big corporations in emergency funds despite them putting down collaterals and securities. The pandemic is making banks really stringent with loaning out more money than they have to. It makes me wonder if students will have the same ease this time around while taking out massive line of credits. 

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26 minutes ago, FirstGear said:

I'm wondering how willing banks will be to lend money. Many people have had their financial situation and credit crushed by Covid-19 , including myself after being in the workforce and a business owner for the last 7 years . With bad credit records lasting 6 years there's no easy way to start over soon either. I went from $132,000 annual income to insolvent . 

It looks like students that applied for last cycle were still able to get lines of credit like normal, but I'm definitely keeping my ears open for what happens. I'm sincerely hoping nothing drastic happens with LOCs, because if I can't get one for at least $20 - 30k, I won't be able to go to law school at all.

I'm pretty lucky in that I'm still in my last year of undergrad, so I'm "insulated" from the financial effect the pandemic had on many people. I'm sorry to hear that you've lost so much. 

Edited by lh22

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That is actually a good point. I know I said when the economy goes down applications goes up (and past data has shown that) HOWEVER I did not consider the fact that schools will be online instead of in person. Many people who value networking and in person aspect of classes might not find it worthwhile this cycle as compared to past "recession" cycles.

14 hours ago, 0Lawschool2020 said:

Yeah, those are fair points. This pandemic definitely provides a unique circumstance. It'll be interesting to look at the applications data when all is said and done. 

 

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33 minutes ago, lh22 said:

It looks like students that applied for last cycle were still able to get lines of credit like normal, but I'm definitely keeping my ears open for what happens. I'm sincerely hoping nothing drastic happens with LOCs, because if I can't get one for at least $20 - 30k, I won't be able to go to law school at all.

I'm pretty lucky in that I'm still in my last year of undergrad, so I'm "insulated" from the financial effect the pandemic had on many people. I'm sorry to hear that you've lost so much. 

On the bright side, anyone who decides to go to U of A or U of Calgary will be able to find a deal on housing. My home (which is about a dozen blocks away from the university) was worth $360,000 in 2017 and neighbors have their homes listed one for $244,000, another 269,000. The former is after 4 price drops and still no bites. Rents have gone down though not quite as drastically. 

Edited by FirstGear
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19 hours ago, Dreamchaser said:

I've seen funding cut for even big corporations in emergency funds despite them putting down collaterals and securities. The pandemic is making banks really stringent with loaning out more money than they have to. It makes me wonder if students will have the same ease this time around while taking out massive line of credits. 

it is a bit off topic, most of the line of credit or even mortgages are callable loans which means the bank or the financial institution can pull back at anytime. I don't know much about the PSLOC, I imagine it is like another line of credit, so it will be base on your credit score and your repay power. I am not trying to increase another level of anxiety but that's what the reality is.

That's why now the govt is trying to ask the bank to allow defer mortgage payment etc....but keep making payment is a good sign for the bank to consider call you the last if they do.

 

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15 minutes ago, many2021 said:

it is a bit off topic, most of the line of credit or even mortgages are callable loans which means the bank or the financial institution can pull back at anytime. I don't know much about the PSLOC, I imagine it is like another line of credit, so it will be base on your credit score and your repay power. I am not trying to increase another level of anxiety but that's what the reality is.

That's why now the govt is trying to ask the bank to allow defer mortgage payment etc....but keep making payment is a good sign for the bank to consider call you the last if they do.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. 

I don't want to derail the thread but my post was just to state the current state of the pandemic and its relation to the banks willingness to loan money because of how much they have already given out. Credit score is just part of your application so whether you have a 600 or 810, it doesn't guarantee you'll get approved. 

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1 hour ago, Dreamchaser said:

I'm not sure what you mean. 

I don't want to derail the thread but my post was just to state the current state of the pandemic and its relation to the banks willingness to loan money because of how much they have already given out. Credit score is just part of your application so whether you have a 600 or 810, it doesn't guarantee you'll get approved. 

In the usual scenario, creditors (especially non-big-5 are more concerned about no credit than bad credit and ability to repay. Not sure about the metrics for education loans ... I've had a mortgage for 5 years with only 2 missed payments, and 9 of car payments (flawless unto Covid-19). Then the score dropped to the 400s after I became insolvent. 

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9 hours ago, castlepie said:

I wonder if/when we'll receive more clarity on schools' plans

My guess is that they won't give a definite answer until part-way through the summer. I also feel like their plan will be very dependent on what province the school is in.

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It’s funny reading this thread now to realize how much my mindset has changed in the last few months. I can hardly believe I wrote that I’d defer or reapply if law school is online this year. I’ve completely changed my mind on that...there’s no way I won’t be going to law school in the fall, online or not. I think now that I’ve seen how competitive this cycle is, I don’t want to take the risk of not getting into the same schools next cycle. And I don’t have the patience to wait another year and a half (I’m on a gap year atm, finished my undergrad in June 2020). 
 

I really hope that there is some option for in person classes in 2021. I know I’ll be miserable if everything is still online then. But I also have some faith that they’ll at least try to incorporate in person elements by then, especially considering the vaccination process has already begun. And we will be over half a year into vaccinating people when school starts. 
 

I also hope that law schools will give us some sense of whether they are planning for classes to be in person or online before the offer deadlines. It would effect my decision to go to one school over another. I’m leaning more towards schools like Queens and Lakehead over Osgoode and Ottawa because I feel like they might be able to offer more in person elements. But who knows yet, really. 

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I would seriously consider deferring my acceptance if I got into law school for 2021 Fall. I cannot imagine doing this without having friends at the school and going through this together. The people and social experiences really are what make law school fun. I suppose you could fly solo but "Zoom socials" and all that are absolutely insufferable and I don't see how it's really doable to build proper relationships this way. If your school allows you to defer an acceptance and will hold a spot open for you in Fall 2022, I'd encourage that, honestly. 

Then again, if you very much feel you need to do this now and "get on with your life" then by all means - I'm just saying the experience will be significantly, significantly better in-person. 

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34 minutes ago, Prospero said:

I would seriously consider deferring my acceptance if I got into law school for 2021 Fall. I cannot imagine doing this without having friends at the school and going through this together. The people and social experiences really are what make law school fun. I suppose you could fly solo but "Zoom socials" and all that are absolutely insufferable and I don't see how it's really doable to build proper relationships this way. If your school allows you to defer an acceptance and will hold a spot open for you in Fall 2022, I'd encourage that, honestly. 

Then again, if you very much feel you need to do this now and "get on with your life" then by all means - I'm just saying the experience will be significantly, significantly better in-person. 

I wouldn't have even considered deferring if I was an applicant at this point, but before going to law school I really don't think I would have appreciated how much worse the online law school experience would be compared to in-person school for 1L. I did part of my undergrad studies through online distance education and that was fine, but law school is a whole different animal.

The social aspect, the networking aspect, good class participation dynamics, access to professors, etc, are all extremely important and were all exponentially better in person. Online 3L is fine but to do this in 1L would be brutal and anyone doing so has my sympathies. I agree with you and emphasize it to applicants because it isn't something I would have really "gotten" had I not been fortunate enough to complete 1L in-person.

Edited by CleanHands
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