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JanLevinsonGould

OCIs and a current accepted offer

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1 minute ago, xdarkwhite said:

Sometimes, people take jobs and opportunities that are upsetting and degrading because of their lack of privilege, lack of resources, and whatever other reasons.

Yes, being able to secure a 1L summer job with a firm as a JD student and getting hired back prior to even the OCI process occurring is so indicative of a "lack of privilege." /s

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@xdarkwhite Thank you for your response. I think you're right - I either need to withdraw my acceptance now and go through OCIs or accept the offer. I'll have to think on this and make a decision, before OCIs. It does feel unethical, which is really why posted this in the first place. Your post has been incredibly helpful. Thanks!

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41 minutes ago, thegoodlaw said:

In your original post, you made passing reference to a suspicion that you're "pretty sure" some of the clerks are racist, based on your perception of their rudeness. The thrust of your post was that you think you can find better opportunities elsewhere, want to keep this job just in case, and would like the experience of interviewing and participating in OCIs. Don't play up the race card when your strategy is called scummy.

This is really just life advice in general - don't ever call it a "race card".

I also don't appreciate folk weighing in on the validity of my experience and whether or not it had an impact on my decision-making. I clarified that it did have a big impact on my decision, and acknowledged that, perhaps, my OP did not sufficiently show this. This was partly intentional, as discussions about race on this forum and the internet as a whole tend to digress and stress me the fuck out (this post is a good example of that). I subsequently made what I mean clear, you certainly don't have to "believe it".

But, I just want to reiterate again how awful the term "race card is". Trust me, if it were a card with any kind of "advantage", as this term implies, these issues wouldn't even exist. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming you aren't a racist or wilfully ignorant person, I'm hoping you won't use the term again.

 

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21 minutes ago, JanLevinsonGould said:

I think this is where the race discussion ends for me. I don't need you to validate the seriousness of my experiences. I apologize if Diplock was insulted by my response. It is unfortunate that you, CleanHands, are not capable of being empathetic to my perspective.

Listen. I don't wear it on me, for my own personal reasons, but I'm a BIPOC and have had it very literally cause me trauma that I deal with to this day.

You're dead wrong here. Dead wrong. You got a job offer at a firm. Clearly they think you're a good student, since there's literally hundreds of unemployed 3Ls willing to take on a summer job next summer to try and article the year after.  

Some clerks were rude to you? Tough. That's an HR issue. That's NOT something that warrants the behaviour you're contemplating.

Do whatever you will. But I and others won't let you use the very real lived experiences of BIPOC individuals to somehow shelter you from being told you're being shitty. That makes you even more shitty.

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1 minute ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Some clerks were rude to you? Tough. That's an HR issue. That's NOT something that warrants the behaviour you're contemplating.

Some clerks are rude, a couple were racist (please see my OP again). As in I walked in on them having a  blatantly racist conversation. Does that make my experience more valid to you?

I understand the unethical aspects of what i am contemplating above, thanks for your input. 
 

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18 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Do whatever you will. But I and others won't let you use the very real lived experiences of BIPOC individuals to somehow shelter you from being told you're being shitty. That makes you even more shitty.

This is not at all what I am doing... There was general misunderstanding that the only factor I was considering was the money. I wanted to clarify that that was not true. I have repeatedly acknowledged the unethical nature of this.

Please, don't call me shitty. This forum is toxic enough as is. 

Also based on your reaction to CleanHand's post above, I'm starting to doubt you're a BIPOC. 

Edited by JanLevinsonGould
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Who cares. People walk away from jobs all the time. Shit changes. OCI jobs can often be an easy conveyor belt to a well-paying associate job, which likely isn’t the case at this employer.

I do agree holding onto the job just in case you don’t get an OCI offer is a shitty move, but I’m sure you wouldn’t be the first to do this. 

Tell your boss you’ve decided you won’t be back, and try the recruit. If you got a 1L job with a cold email I bet you can do the same next summer if the recruit doesn’t go well. 

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26 minutes ago, JanLevinsonGould said:

@xdarkwhite Thank you for your response. I think you're right - I either need to withdraw my acceptance now and go through OCIs or accept the offer. I'll have to think on this and make a decision, before OCIs. It does feel unethical, which is really why posted this in the first place. Your post has been incredibly helpful. Thanks!

This is the right conclusion, regardless of how you may have gotten there.

I am not offended by anything you posted. I'm incredibly hard to offend. But if you're still receptive to advice, let me offer this. The legal community includes a lot of people who come from a wide range of backgrounds - visibly privileged, and not, and also invisibly privileged, and not. If you have some sort of chip on your shoulder that's fine. Use it. In order to be a strong advocate, you need a bit of that edge.

Where I would take issue with your presentation of your logic and situation is that it basically runs like this. You present what is basically a normal(ish) workplace problem, and then suggest that only someone who shares your identity (race, gender, religion, etc.) can even have a valid opinion about what's happening to you because your experiences in this problem are so informed by identity it trumps every other seemingly normal aspect of the situation. And that leads me to wonder, exactly how much like you do I need to be in order to have a valid opinion? And why did you even ask people who aren't like you, if only people like you can possibly understand?

I say this not to deny the reality of racism and other forms of exclusion, but just as advice about how to navigate legal environments and dealing with the legal community. To reduce my point to its most basic idea, being a lawyer is also an identity, and it's an identity we all share and you'll share very soon. You'll relate more to some lawyers than to others, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if you relate more to those coming from non-privileged backgrounds rather than those from privilege. But it won't always be your own racial identity, etc. And quite honestly, all lawyers have at least potentially valid opinions about the problems you'll encounter in legal workplaces and similar situations.

Anyway, good luck.

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P.S. The above is unrelated to the OP's concerns, but it seems to come up every time these job situations are discussed. And there are two issues here. One is about work situations in general, the other is about law student recruiting.

For general purposes, there are two potential mistakes people make. One is to identify too much with the interests of an employer and imagine they owe some exaggerated loyalty. The other is to imagine an employee owes nothing at all outside their own self-interest. The reality is somewhere down the middle. Your employer doesn't own you, but at the same time your relationship to a professional employer is simply different from the work and school obligations you may have experienced in the past. The obligation runs both ways, and the specific ways it plays out may vary. You can treat your job and your employer like they only exist for your convenience, but if you do that you'll attract the reputation you deserve.

For purposes of student recruiting, there are special rules to this game and those rules have been designed to help students. To be fair, the practical consequences of breaking these rules are mainly theoretical and not likely to catch anyone, extreme situations aside. But dismissing them entirely isn't cool. When people have gone out of their way to create a system to help you find employment, and all you're expected to do is play within a very basic set of rules to make it work, being the person who thinks you're more special than everyone else who's staying within the lines isn't a good play, unless and until there's a very good reason.

Edited by Diplock
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1 hour ago, JanLevinsonGould said:

I think this is where the race discussion ends for me. I don't need you to validate the seriousness of my experiences.

 

35 minutes ago, JanLevinsonGould said:

I'm starting to doubt you're a BIPOC. 

I am loathe to wade into this discussion at all but this is just jarring. You want people to accept your identity-based experiences without question or critique, and then you turn around and question someone's expressed identity? Jesus.

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If only it weren't too hilariously sad that a lot of my trauma has to do with people questioning my identity.

:(

Edited by pzabbythesecond
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For what it’s worth, I’m a POC. I appreciate that there is racism in this profession and that it is surprisingly common in the workplace. I also know that some people use racism as an excuse to shield themselves from criticism.

This topic only came up because OP decided to go on a tangent about their misunderstood lived experiences because they couldn’t handle some blunt advice from Diplock. And that pissed me off.

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18 hours ago, xdarkwhite said:

Seriously? I won't go down this road other than the response:

Privilege, or lack thereof, doesn't come from whether or not you secured a 1L summer job. Experiencing racism is not cancelled out by having a return offer.

You know, I slept on this overnight because it really didn't seem worth it to respond. But screw it: context matters. I was responding directly to your statement about people taking jobs due to lack of opportunities, given that the OP is in a better position in terms of opportunities and job security than the vast majority of JD students starting 2L. And JD students are not exactly a marginalized and underprivileged class of people to start with. This has nothing to do with whether racism is a thing (obviously it is) or whether it is bad (obviously it is).

But go on and have fun raking in the "likes" with woke platitudes that ignore the context of the discussion and don't actually respond to the salient point.

That's all I have to say about this.

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As a neutral third party to the debate about accepting and reneging - how is accepting an offer to return and then "secretly" doing the recruit any different than applying for new jobs while already employed? I'm just curious whether there is some different employment law principle I'm missing here, or if it's purely about reputation.

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22 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

As a neutral third party to the debate about accepting and reneging - how is accepting an offer to return and then "secretly" doing the recruit any different than applying for new jobs while already employed? I'm just curious whether there is some different employment law principle I'm missing here, or if it's purely about reputation.

In the general sense any concerns would mostly be about reputation and moral obligations. 

Specific to the OP though - nobody has read the contract they actually signed, nobody knows the firm or, really, the actual facts... so it's going to far to say that OP has no legal exposure (even if that just means exposure to something frivolous from a dumb firm). I think that's all anybody was really trying to express. 

Edited by BringBackCrunchBerries
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44 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

As a neutral third party to the debate about accepting and reneging - how is accepting an offer to return and then "secretly" doing the recruit any different than applying for new jobs while already employed? I'm just curious whether there is some different employment law principle I'm missing here, or if it's purely about reputation.

It is a difference of good faith, accepting a job with the intention of not starting if you are able to is actively misleading.

The corollary that makes this even clearer: imagine you were a summer student at a firm that offered you a job with the intention of finding a replacement before you started; you would understandably feel betrayed.

 

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On 9/24/2020 at 12:53 PM, Mal said:

It is a difference of good faith, accepting a job with the intention of not starting if you are able to is actively misleading.

The corollary that makes this even clearer: imagine you were a summer student at a firm that offered you a job with the intention of finding a replacement before you started; you would understandably feel betrayed.

 

I understand what you're saying and agree with the logic. At the same time, I think the imbalance of power in the employer/employee relationship makes it less serious if an employee does it vs. an employer doing it. 

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On 9/24/2020 at 3:53 PM, Mal said:

It is a difference of good faith, accepting a job with the intention of not starting if you are able to is actively misleading.

The corollary that makes this even clearer: imagine you were a summer student at a firm that offered you a job with the intention of finding a replacement before you started; you would understandably feel betrayed.

 

Is that not what where the classic “fireback” comes from - where firms know they will fire a number of the employees they are currently hiring quickly?

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15 minutes ago, JohnStuartHobbes said:

Is that not what where the classic “fireback” comes from - where firms know they will fire a number of the employees they are currently hiring quickly?

Who hurt you?

 

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