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4 hours ago, artsydork said:

Can we all start distinguishing between an LLM and Osgoode's professional LLM offered by continuing education!? Like, LLM and "llm"?

Seriously. An LLM without the academic rigour of an actual graduate program in law is one of the most obvious cash grabs. In my opinion, it doesn't do Osgoode many favours in its effects on its reputation -.-

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19 minutes ago, Ryn said:

As a former adcom member for Osgoode, I don't think having an LLB from a UK school would either help or hinder your application. I think it would be evaluated in the same way as any other application. I don't think you'd have a "leg up" in getting in, but I don't think anyone would say you were foolish for getting a UK LLB. An undergrad is an undergrad, no matter where it's from (generally speaking).

Maybe, but you wouldn't want to work for those fraction of people. If I were hiring, I'd certainly ask, but more out of curiosity in getting to know their background than trying to judge them on life decisions that have no effect on their ability to work for me. I would venture to guess that most of the lawyers hiring at my firm would also not think that way.

If OP gets a Canadian JD, I doubt the vast majority of people, anywhere, would draw any sort of negative inference from him or her having a first-entry UK LLB on their resume.

Thank you. I appreciate this input. 

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5 hours ago, artsydork said:

Can we all start distinguishing between an LLM and Osgoode's professional LLM offered by continuing education!? Like, LLM and "llm"?

I'm generally careful to distinguish, others including York/Osgoode itself not so much. It used to be required in all programs that you had to complete a major research paper (not as big as a thesis, about half as long, but still had to be original etc.) but they got rid of that requirement a few years ago, probably because too many people didn't finish it which hurt their advertising or something... I did know a few people who went from the professional LLM into doctoral programs, so the LLM was accepted for that purpose despite not being an academic LLM, which admittedly surprised me somewhat.

9 minutes ago, Ryn said:

Seriously. An LLM without the academic rigour of an actual graduate program in law is one of the most obvious cash grabs. In my opinion, it doesn't do Osgoode many favours in its effects on its reputation -.-

Not sure where these two posts came from. I'd focus on misleadingly calling an undergraduate law degree a "JD" degree, to try to make people think it's a graduate degree... but snark aside, I agree that universities generally, including of course law schools, push to get people to pay for "credentials" (put in quotes deliberately).

I found the professional LLM level of instruction/discussion/writing far more advanced than law school, probably because it was almost all practitioners with substantial experience in the field, and instructors generally academics not practitioners, but I acknowledge that was when they still had more rigorous MRP etc. requirements in the professional LLM.

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3 minutes ago, epeeist said:

I'm generally careful to distinguish, others including York/Osgoode itself not so much. It used to be required in all programs that you had to complete a major research paper (not as big as a thesis, about half as long, but still had to be original etc.) but they got rid of that requirement a few years ago, probably because too many people didn't finish it which hurt their advertising or something... I did know a few people who went from the professional LLM into doctoral programs, so the LLM was accepted for that purpose despite not being an academic LLM, which admittedly surprised me somewhat.

Not sure where these two posts came from. I'd focus on misleadingly calling an undergraduate law degree a "JD" degree, to try to make people think it's a graduate degree... but snark aside, I agree that universities generally, including of course law schools, push to get people to pay for "credentials" (put in quotes deliberately).

I found the professional LLM level of instruction/discussion/writing far more advanced than law school, probably because it was almost all practitioners with substantial experience in the field, and instructors generally academics not practitioners, but I acknowledge that was when they still had more rigorous MRP etc. requirements in the professional LLM.

Op mentions that they'd do Osgoode's Canadian Law "LLM". That's where it came from. I was distinguishing between that and U of T's LLM with criminal focus. 

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1 minute ago, artsydork said:

Op mentions that they'd do Osgoode's Canadian Law "LLM". That's where it came from. I was distinguishing between that and U of T's LLM with criminal focus. 

Since the U of T grants LLMs with no thesis (or major research paper) requirement, coursework only, I'd be inclined to be contemptuous of both...

That is, they both (and other schools) devalue what a master's degree is or means, by granting them simply to warm bodies who don't do research. If they wanted to call it e.g. an ELLM or PLLM or something, that would be clearer, but also not help them get more paying students...

 

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4 hours ago, driedupwaterparks said:

My only thought is I almost never consider an undergrad when hiring/interviewing candidates. It adds colour to their application, but focus tends to be almost exclusively on the JD. 

so someone with a commerce degree (Queens) or HBA from Western doesn't have an advantage for OCIs versus someone with an arts degree when interviewing for Bay Street jobs? 

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I don’t think that’s a fair interpretation. duwp was talking about their practise and not making a general statement on behalf of all employers. 

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6 minutes ago, jatthopefullawyer said:

so someone with a commerce degree (Queens) or HBA from Western doesn't have an advantage for OCIs versus someone with an arts degree when interviewing for Bay Street jobs? 

Have you ever talked to somebody with a commerce degree? The arts degrees have an advantage simply because the interviewers will still be awake by the end of the interview. 

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Why stop at two LLMs? A candidate with three LLMs might take that brass ring position from you. 
 

Fantastic opportunity to sharpen your negotiation skills; at the very least, I would hope you could convince Oz or U of T to give you a buy 2 get 1 free. 

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4 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Have you ever talked to somebody with a commerce degree? The arts degrees have an advantage simply because the interviewers will still be awake by the end of the interview. 

The few friends I have with a commerce degree are actually quite interesting people. I was genuinely asking and wanted to know if these types of prestigious programs had an advantage or not in OCIs. 

Edited by jatthopefullawyer

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15 minutes ago, jatthopefullawyer said:

so someone with a commerce degree (Queens) or HBA from Western doesn't have an advantage for OCIs versus someone with an arts degree when interviewing for Bay Street jobs? 

It matters less than you think. I remember the survey from my incoming class at Osgoode (~290 people) and only about 5% had business undergrads. The reality is, MBAs aside, firms generally don't care about business undergrads because there are so few of them, and having one doesn't necessarily mean you can do the work of a lawyer any better. Sure, it helps somewhat because you can read a balance sheet and you can do time value of money calculations like no one's business, but that's not something you can't learn. And really, a lawyer rarely of ever has to read a balance sheet, and if we do, we usually get an accountant to opine. Better to have someone else take that liability.

I think the only true benefit it has is being able to connect with entrepreneur and sophisticated clients better. If you deal with smaller businesses, you will inevitably touch on some business-related topics as you provide your advice. Many small business clients also tend to ask for business-related advice more. But these are all advanced things that you, as summer student or articling student will simply not be doing. Even as a new call (well I suppose now in my second year), I rarely give business advice, since I'm mainly doing work for partners who are the ones giving said business advice (though I have done it, and my business degree certainly does help). Over the years, as you build a book, you'll pick that stuff up. So there's really very little advantage at the hiring stage, in my view. And I think that's reflected in the fact that I'm sure every year many competent students holding business degrees are rejected over other competent students holding arts degrees.

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2 minutes ago, jatthopefullawyer said:

The few friends I have with a commerce degree are actually quite interesting people. I was genuinely asking and wanted to know if these types of prestigious programs had an advantage or not in OCIs. 

No, not really. They’re probably more likely to get Bay Street jobs, but they’re also probably more likely to apply. And once you’re at the firm, the difference is very negligible. The good Bay Street firms will teach you everything you need to know, or give you the resources to.

MBAs and JD MBAs seem to have a hiring advantage, particularly during the 1L and NY recruits, I don’t think that extends to undergrad programs. 

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11 minutes ago, jatthopefullawyer said:

The few friends I have with a commerce degree are actually quite interesting people. I was genuinely asking and wanted to know if these types of prestigious programs had an advantage or not in OCIs. 

The thing with prestige is that there is always something more prestigious elsewhere. But no, a commerce degree is not giving anyone any advantages in getting in on bay.

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41 minutes ago, epeeist said:

I'd focus on misleadingly calling an undergraduate law degree a "JD" degree, to try to make people think it's a graduate degree

To be fair, the JD is a centuries-old tradition that dates back to Europe in granting "Doctor of Law" degrees (which are similarly not research degrees like a PhD). In fact, in many European countries with this tradition, such degrees qualify the individuals to use the title "Doctor", notwithstanding that it's not a true doctorate.

JDs in North America have been around since the early 1900s and were created to distinguish the degree from the English tradition of being a first-entry undergraduate degrees. Since in North America, one required an undergraduate degree to obtain what was then called the LLB, it resembled the Central European practice of Doctor of Law degrees more than the English LLB. Hence the name change. I suppose the Latin is just there for that extra bit of prestige.

And anyway, a JD being an undergraduate degree is a bit of a technicality. You couldn't qualify it as a graduate program back in the day because there was no research component (though now, there are all sorts of coursework-only graduate degrees), but I would argue the academic rigour in a JD program, at least in Canada, is at least as high as a graduate degree.

I doubt anyone is materially misled by the JD title. Like, no one is complaining that a DVM is "only" an undergrad, so we shouldn't be calling vets "Doctor". Why would they complain that a JD isn't a "true" doctorate?

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50 minutes ago, jatthopefullawyer said:

so someone with a commerce degree (Queens) or HBA from Western doesn't have an advantage for OCIs versus someone with an arts degree when interviewing for Bay Street jobs? 

I would say no. As a Western grad I know for a fact that some HBA/JDs are not immune from falling through the cracks during the OCI process and not landing a job.

Grades +good resume stand out more than your undergraduate degree in my opinion.

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28 minutes ago, Ryn said:

To be fair, the JD is a centuries-old tradition that dates back to Europe in granting "Doctor of Law" degrees (which are similarly not research degrees like a PhD). In fact, in many European countries with this tradition, such degrees qualify the individuals to use the title "Doctor", notwithstanding that it's not a true doctorate.

JDs in North America have been around since the early 1900s and were created to distinguish the degree from the English tradition of being a first-entry undergraduate degrees. Since in North America, one required an undergraduate degree to obtain what was then called the LLB, it resembled the Central European practice of Doctor of Law degrees more than the English LLB. Hence the name change. I suppose the Latin is just there for that extra bit of prestige.

And anyway, a JD being an undergraduate degree is a bit of a technicality. You couldn't qualify it as a graduate program back in the day because there was no research component (though now, there are all sorts of coursework-only graduate degrees), but I would argue the academic rigour in a JD program, at least in Canada, is at least as high as a graduate degree.

I doubt anyone is materially misled by the JD title. Like, no one is complaining that a DVM is "only" an undergrad, so we shouldn't be calling vets "Doctor". Why would they complain that a JD isn't a "true" doctorate?

MDs are also a second entry undergrad, but they also get the Dr title. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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25 minutes ago, lawstudent20202020 said:

MDs are also a second entry undergrad, but they also get the Dr title. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, but everyone in the know thinks we should switch back to the M.B.B.S nomenclature. 

Stupid Scotland, ruining it for everyone in North America

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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Bcomm didn't seen to make up for weak grades. But it did seem to matter in differentiating between grades that would otherwise get some OCIs. As in, they got more.

This was true in multiple cases, across multiple recruits (NY, Toronto, Montreal) and across multiple years.

At least at McGill. I'm not sure why it would be different elsewhere.

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1 hour ago, Ryn said:

To be fair, the JD is a centuries-old tradition that dates back to Europe in granting "Doctor of Law" degrees (which are similarly not research degrees like a PhD). In fact, in many European countries with this tradition, such degrees qualify the individuals to use the title "Doctor", notwithstanding that it's not a true doctorate.

JDs in North America have been around since the early 1900s and were created to distinguish the degree from the English tradition of being a first-entry undergraduate degrees. Since in North America, one required an undergraduate degree to obtain what was then called the LLB, it resembled the Central European practice of Doctor of Law degrees more than the English LLB. Hence the name change. I suppose the Latin is just there for that extra bit of prestige.

And anyway, a JD being an undergraduate degree is a bit of a technicality. You couldn't qualify it as a graduate program back in the day because there was no research component (though now, there are all sorts of coursework-only graduate degrees), but I would argue the academic rigour in a JD program, at least in Canada, is at least as high as a graduate degree.

I doubt anyone is materially misled by the JD title. Like, no one is complaining that a DVM is "only" an undergrad, so we shouldn't be calling vets "Doctor". Why would they complain that a JD isn't a "true" doctorate?

No, doctorates in law is a centuries-old tradition. For real doctorates. JD is not a doctorate; calling undergraduates "doctors" is a more modern-day fraud based on marketing, arrogance, and lawyers being jealous of US physicians moving to MD degrees (similar criticism, should be MB or for surgeons B.Chir. ? as some places still have).

And, maybe it was different for you, I didn't think my law degree was particularly rigorous or difficult (and my professional LLM courses were more advanced...). My first undergraduate degree was far more difficult and rigorous, and I actually took some graduate courses as part of it, unlike in law...

And, vets, dentists, physicians and surgeons, are called "doctor" as a courtesy that should only be applied in professional settings, like call your dentist "doctor" at their office, Mr. or Ms. in other contexts (though, not pissing off your dentist or physician or vet is a good idea, so maybe stick with that all the time!).

See also:

 

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I find it so odd when adult professionals with years or even decades of work experience fetishize education like this. 
 

The problem with having a degree from Leicester isn’t really that you haven’t learned the Charter. You can go through a Canadian law degree without learning much of practical use about the Charter. 
 

The problem is that a degree from Leicester is a pretty good indicator that you might be an idiot, or at best a fool. 

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