Jump to content
cammyfawkes

To Clinic or to Moot?

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

If you’ve never heard a single upper year student say that a clinic is a “waste of time”, then you haven’t made the right friends. 

Which is rather the point of my post. 

I've worked at various clinics, thanks. Maybe you just aren't the leading authority on every topic.

Edit: saying a clinic is a waste of time vs. calling the staff lawyers and directors worthless dregs who couldn't cut it anywhere else. Terminology @artsydork

Edited by Trew
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

I'll say it again because it keeps happening: @BlockedQuebecois has been heavily strawmanned in this thread and piled on. I am shocked this thread hasn't been locked yet.

@wtamow I honestly think you're really misreading him. I would like to say I know him more than most on here probably and he's not motivated by the things you're claiming he is at all.

 

The people working at these so-called “low-level” clinics are likely not willing to compromise their time or anonymity to defend themselves against petty comments - perhaps that is why there appears to be a “dogpile”. There’s an imbalance in information otherwise. 

Funny enough, I think I’m being strawmanned here. I’m confused as to the language being used and the themes being channeled. I don’t care what the motivations for those are. I specifically cited the parts of this thread that shocked me. I fail to see how “dregs” is an acceptable way to call someone else’s practice on a public forum

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

People in this very thread called business law clinics a waste of time! But people didn't jump at those posters for doing it. Because they backed up their judgements with reasoning that held intellectual water.

Blocked seemed to, too. And he offered to provide more reasons, based on his personal experiences at those clinics. What's wrong with that? Lots of clinics aren't well run, don't do an awful lot, and can be characterized as a waste of time. I certainly saw some of McGill's clinic offerings as wastes of time compared to other things I could have done with my time, and a lot of practitioners said the same about those very clinics.

Notice how this post doesn’t streamline into calling certain practice areas the “dregs of corporate law” and saying that the lawyers who run those practice areas only do so because they didn’t get Bay St jobs? Probably why there will be no dogpile. 
 

EDIT: I also disagree with part of his characterization of a clinic, but I don’t see why I should compromise my anonymity in defending it. He offered no real reasons for his opinions, just devolved straight into ad hominem. Why would I compromise my anonymity to argue with that? 
 

I’ve been at clinics that I found to be a “waste of time” but it was my own fault for not taking full advantage of them despite their flaws. The lawyers were brilliant and no criticisms against them or their practice areas. 

Edited by wtamow
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, on the bright side we’ve now shifted from the incorrect statement that “Blocked thinks criminal law is lower level than Bay Street” to the correct statement that “Blocked thinks the OBC is a lower level clinic than Parkdale” 

Having accomplished that side mission, I’ll call it a W and head to bed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, wtamow said:

I’ve been at clinics that I found to be a “waste of time” but it was my own fault for not taking full advantage of them despite their flaws. The lawyers were brilliant and no criticisms against them or their practice areas. 

You can argue a clinic is poor/badly run/not useful for students while having their lawyers and their respective practice areas not be also poor. I didn't see Blocked ever denigrate those lawyers or call them names.

With your above statement then, are you saying all clinics are useful and good, and equally so? Because I would definitely and firmly disagree with you on that. And I think it's a disservice to incoming students who want to pick between clinics to try and pretend they're all equally well run, useful in general, and equally useful for them (and consequently the clients they serve).

I say the last point because if a student and a clinic are a poor match, the clients suffer. And yes, I still think some clinics are just objectively better run and more useful than others, even before looking at it from a student match perspective.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jaggers said:

In real life, any law student who did bother to offer strong "unfiltered" opinions about the practice of law would just be ignored. On an anonymous forum it's harder, because a random person reading this thread may not have any indication which posters actually have zero direct knowledge about any of the issues they are expounding confidently on.

Another point for people reading this... I'm only one guy, and I only control about 5M in legal spending a year, but if I ever heard in real life someone talking like some of what I've heard here, none of that spend would go to a firm employing that person. "Unfiltered" online talk is worth what it's worth, but make sure you don't take some of it into the real world.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Trew said:

I've worked at various clinics, thanks. Maybe you just aren't the leading authority on every topic.

Edit: saying a clinic is a waste of time vs. calling the staff lawyers and directors worthless dregs who couldn't cut it anywhere else. Terminology @artsydork

Look, if anybody wants a really good example of how strawmanned this thread has become, go back and read my “dregs” comment. 

I said: “everything you’ve written on this site rather suggests that you’re interested in pursuing a higher level of criminal law practice than like, exclusively defending simple assaults flowing from drunken Saturday nights for the rest of your life (or whatever the dregs of criminal law are, if that’s not it).” 

I don’t know how we get from “criminal law, like all areas*, has dregs”, to whatever the hell Trew is going on about. But it clearly wasn’t through anything I said. 

*If you don’t think that I think all areas of law have dregs, please note that I explicitly said “the dregs of every practice area” elsewhere. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

Another point for people reading this... I'm only one guy, and I only control about 5M in legal spending a year, but if I ever heard in real life someone talking like some of what I've heard here, none of that spend would go to a firm employing that person. "Unfiltered" online talk is worth what it's worth, but make sure you don't take some of it into the real world.

I'm just curious, what's the rationale for punishing a whole firm for the actions of a single lawyer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

You can argue a clinic is poor/badly run/not useful for students while having their lawyers and their respective practice areas not be also poor. I didn't see Blocked ever denigrate those lawyers or call them names.

With your above statement then, are you saying all clinics are useful and good, and equally so? Because I would definitely and firmly disagree with you on that. And I think it's a disservice to incoming students who want to pick between clinics to try and pretend they're all equally well run, useful in general, and equally useful for them (and consequently the clients they serve).

I say the last point because if a student and a clinic are a poor match, the clients suffer. And yes, I still think some clinics are just objectively better run and more useful than others, even before looking at it from a student match perspective.

You don’t think it’s denigrating to imply that some lawyers are only working at clinics because they couldn’t make it on Bay St? Or that certain practice areas is the dregs? Are these sentiments helpful or useful for students in assessing the quality and fit of a clinic? Is this doing a service to students?

I’m sure some clinics are not well run or a poor fit but that has nothing to do with the adhom here, especially since his opinions on some of the clinics he namedropped are debatable at best in the first place.

If someone enters a clinic thinking “damn these lawyers are only here because they didn’t end up on Bay St” then I can imagine that will cloud their judgment enough to the point where I question their opinions on those clinics in the first place.

And once again, if someone is calling high throughput routine practice areas “dregs of X law” then I really can’t imagine what they think about the staff at their firm. 

Edited by wtamow
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Look, if anybody wants a really good example of how strawmanned this thread has become, go back and read my “dregs” comment. 

I said: “everything you’ve written on this site rather suggests that you’re interested in pursuing a higher level of criminal law practice than like, exclusively defending simple assaults flowing from drunken Saturday nights for the rest of your life (or whatever the dregs of criminal law are, if that’s not it).” 

I don’t know how we get from “criminal law, like all areas*, has dregs”, to whatever the hell Trew is going on about. But it clearly wasn’t through anything I said. 

*If you don’t think that I think all areas of law have dregs, please note that I explicitly said “the dregs of every practice area” elsewhere. 

damn you be posting in your sleep too 

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, wtamow said:

You don’t think it’s denigrating to imply that some lawyers are only working at clinics because they couldn’t make it on Bay St? Or that their practice area is the dregs?

Of course that's denigrating, but you're straw manning blocked here. He never said that.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, wtamow said:

You don’t think it’s denigrating to imply that some lawyers are only working at clinics because they couldn’t make it on Bay St? Or that their practice area is the dregs?

Nobody has said anything even close to either of these sentiments. 

Some psychologists would suggest that the fact that you’ve drawn these implications out of thin air implies that you actually think they’re true.

Fortunately, I’m not a psychologist. I’m just a dude who doesn’t believe either of those things. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Nobody has said anything even close to either of these sentiments. 

Some psychologists would suggest that the fact that you’ve drawn these implications out of thin air implies that you actually think they’re true.

Fortunately, I’m not a psychologist. I’m just a dude who doesn’t believe either of those things. 

You literally said that routine high throughput criminal law work is “dregs of criminal law” and that @CleanHands was aspiring to “higher” work. Maybe @Trew is right, you are sleepposting and thus unaware of the strange comments you make. 
 

Here is a direct quote. I think it speaks for itself: 

There’s this weird myth that gets bandied about in law school, and also a bit on this board, that there are people who genuinely and sincerely want to work on unsophisticated, low level work for the rest of their lives, and I don’t buy it. There are lawyers who settle for that – the guy who misses Bay St and every other business law job on the way down and ends up working as a sole in some random city because it just so happens that there’s no competition there, the shitty defence counsel who can only ever get whatever the simplest criminal law retainers (I won’t pretend to know what those are), the residential tenancy lawyer who is stuck arguing that smearing feces all over the apartment complex doesn’t interfere with other tenants reasonable enjoyment or constitute an illegal act – but I honestly don’t believe there are any lawyers that aspire to that.”

Edited by wtamow
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Recent Posts

    • I may or may not have imbibed a little yestreday as I ate three beyond meat burgers which have turned out to be amazing food... by 10pm I was out. Anyway at 8:55 this morning I was still asleep. Comatose. My cat, who as previously discussed is a total asshole, decided to come in and lick my nostrils until I was fully and irritably awake. At 8:58 I had my phone in my hand and was just about to check my emails when some one called.  I should note here that the sound and vibration was off so the only reason I noticed and accepted this call was because my phone was literally in my hand. And this is what happened: *clears throat* “Hegdis speaking.” ”Good morning, this is the clerk of the court calling on the _______ matter for PTC. I have counsel and Justice Smith on the line.” ”YES! Ahem, I mean yes. Thank you.” ”Good morning counsel, where do we stand on this file?” And all I can say is thank the lord for chatty lawyers who like to jump in and dominate these calls because as I was staring blankly at my bedroom wall and listening to them go on the file came rushing back to me. When it was my turn to speak I was - mercifully - ready to go. My cat, having bathed herself from head to toe, was curled up and asleep on my pillow by the time I hung up.  So now I need suggestions for a really excellent cat toy please. 
    • Could you be a little more specific? Also were you wait-listed? 
    • I was placed on the waitlist at Dalhousie a couple of weeks ago, and today, when I tried to log in to dalonline to check on my application as I've done before, it took me to the general page for beginning an application, instead of showing me my in progress application. Anybody else experienced this/ know what it might mean?   Thanks
    • If today (July 2nd) some provisional acceptances become firm or is a final deadline for people to accept, do you guys think we can expect to see some waitlist movement in the coming days?
    • Ottawa was founded in 1953 and Ryerson in 2019. Go to the proven and established institution. 

×
×
  • Create New...