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Hello All,

Hope you are keeping healthy and safe during this pandemic! 

I just got my final grades back for 1L. I was wondering what my OCI options for full service Toronto firms might look like based solely on my grades:

 

Property: B+

Dispute Res: B+ 

Contracts: B

Elective: A-

Torts: B

Legal Research: B+ 

Pub Con: B+ 

Crim: B

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, thedinnerparty said:

Ottawa.

From what I understand the full service firms have different numbers of OCI slots at different schools. A firm might have 80 slots for one school and only around 20 for another. I don't know how many slots the full service Toronto firms schedule for Ottawa OCIs. The number of slots each firm schedules is important because that determines the total number of OCIs available and how many people can get them.

Speaking from Queen's though where there is one day of Toronto OCIs and where most of the full service firms schedule around 40 OCI slots with a few scheduling 20, you'd probably get around 4-6 OCIs out of the 15-20ish large full service firms in Toronto with those grades. You could increase the numbers of OCIs you get if you apply more broadly though (as in to firms other than the large full service ones). People I knew with roughly equal grades to yours got around 10 OCIs total out of 40ish applications to full service, boutique, and government jobs. 

 

Edited by QMT20
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What does Ottawa curve to? Assuming it’s a B curve and not a B+ curve then you’ll probably get a handful of OCIs 

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1 hour ago, healthlaw said:

What does Ottawa curve to? Assuming it’s a B curve and not a B+ curve then you’ll probably get a handful of OCIs 

B curve!

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1 hour ago, healthlaw said:

What does Ottawa curve to? Assuming it’s a B curve and not a B+ curve then you’ll probably get a handful of OCIs 

I had a question about the Queen's curve. I hear people saying queen's curve is better due to it being B+, does that mean employers look at a B+ more poorly at queens compared to a B+ at Western? 

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I am not sure where the information about Queen's curve being a B+ comes from? Almost every single course at Queen's, except for small seminars is curved to a B not a B+

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You'll get at least a few. Don't stress about your grades now, there's nothing you can do about them. Instead, use that time to make the best application package you can to each firm you apply to. Speak to people at the firm, and tailor your application and show that you're genuinely interested in the firm. That will go a long way with getting OCIs.

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B, but ADR and Thematic curve to a B+. 

OP should receive a few OCIs depending on other factors in their packages. 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, duckinslippers1 said:

I am not sure where the information about Queen's curve being a B+ comes from? Almost every single course at Queen's, except for small seminars is curved to a B not a B+

The information comes from the fact that Queen’s law’s grading scheme allows the mean grade to be a B+, because granting both As and Cs are fully discretionary. At most schools, the curve is enforced with mandatory percentages of each grade level, which prevents a mean grade of B+.

To illustrate, a professor at Queens could give the following grade to a class of 100:

20 As

29 B+s

51 Bs

This would lead to the median grade being a B, but the average (mean) grade being a B+. 

In contrast, at Osgoode the highest possible grade distribution is:

5 A+

15 A

21 B+

44 B 

3 C+ 

12 C

Thus, at Osgoode, the median grade is still a B, and so is the average (mean). 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

The information comes from the fact that Queen’s law’s grading scheme allows the mean grade to be a B+, because granting both As and Cs are fully discretionary. At most schools, the curve is enforced with mandatory percentages of each grade level, which prevents a mean grade of B+.

To illustrate, a professor at Queens could give the following grade to a class of 100:

20 As

29 B+s

51 Bs

This would lead to the median grade being a B, but the average (mean) grade being a B+. 

In contrast, at Osgoode the highest possible grade distribution is:

5 A+

15 A

21 B+

44 B 

3 C+ 

12 C

Thus, at Osgoode, the median grade is still a B, and so is the average (mean). 

Wait, I thought the opposite is true? At most schools, there is a required mean for courses but not an actual curve. At Queen's, there is a required median for each course and a maximum (although no minimum) on the number of grades >B+ and <B-. 

In any case, the mean for a class is not all that useful a number for the most part. Knowing the median is much more useful. If you go to Queen's and if you take a black-letter law course (almost all such courses are curved to a B median), getting a B+ tells an employer that the student beat at least 50% of the class in that course and getting an A- or an A tells the employer the student beat 80% of the class in that course. The same sort of reasoning applies for grades below B.

Edited by Pythia

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, duckinslippers1 said:

I am not sure where the information about Queen's curve being a B+ comes from? Almost every single course at Queen's, except for small seminars is curved to a B not a B+

Different schools have different grading rules. Some require a specific mean, some require a specific median, some set requirements on the percentage of students that can get a particular grade (e.g. no more than x% As). If you look at the actual distribution of grades at Queen's, they tend to have significantly more B+s than other Ontario schools due to their grading requirements.

Although I don't agree with all of the comments of @BlockedQuebecois (e.g. most schools do not enforce a curve and Osgoode's isn't a curve given the higher number of Cs than C+s), his or her illustration of the possible grades at Queen's versus Osgoode makes the point very well. Osgoode has the most prescriptive grade distribution and, at multiple other schools, no Cs have to be given. But at many, if not most other Ontario schools, a mean rather than a median is used, meaning that Queen's can have more B+s.

 

Edited by ProfReader
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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, jatthopefullawyer said:

Can anyone post a grade distribution for Western? I cannot find anything 

They don't mandate a distribution. They use an average.

As does Ottawa despite someone referring to it as a "B curve" above.

Edit: just to be clear, I don't think any of this should inform someone's choice to attend a particular school

Edited by ProfReader
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2 hours ago, ProfReader said:

Different schools have different grading rules. Some require a specific mean, some require a specific median, some set requirements on the percentage of students that can get a particular grade (e.g. no more than x% As). If you look at the actual distribution of grades at Queen's, they tend to have significantly more B+s than other Ontario schools due to their grading requirements.

Although I don't agree with all of the comments of @BlockedQuebecois (e.g. most schools do not enforce a curve and Osgoode's isn't a curve given the higher number of Cs than C+s), his or her illustration of the possible grades at Queen's versus Osgoode makes the point very well. Osgoode has the most prescriptive grade distribution and, at multiple other schools, no Cs have to be given. But at many, if not most other Ontario schools, a mean rather than a median is used, meaning that Queen's can have more B+s.

 

Thanks for the clarification :) 

I would have thought Osgoode is pretty close to a curve, since they allow 2/3rds of C range grades to be a C+. My understanding of the curve, given the maximum amount of + grades and no variance from the prescribed values, means in a 100 person class you would end up with: 

5 A+

10 A 

20 B+ 

40 B

13 C+

7 C

5 D/F

I would think that fairly closely approximates a bell curve? Is this incorrect? 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Thanks for the clarification :) 

I would have thought Osgoode is pretty close to a curve, since they allow 2/3rds of C range grades to be a C+. My understanding of the curve, given the maximum amount of + grades and no variance from the prescribed values, means in a 100 person class you would end up with: 

5 A+

10 A 

20 B+ 

40 B

13 C+

7 C

5 D/F

I would think that fairly closely approximates a bell curve? Is this incorrect? 

Sorry, I should have been more clear. It is correct that most schools don't have a curve, they have a mean or a median. Osgoode's grades could definitely approximate a curve, as in the example that you've given here. I just meant that it doesn't have to be a bell curve, as with your previous example that had more Cs than C+s (which would look like a double humped camel rather than curve). But it looks like you had just flipped the C and C+ grades in that example.

Edited by ProfReader
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5 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Once again, I envy Osgoode.

Why?

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