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Ontario Call to the Bar - June

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9 minutes ago, admitme said:

 

TL/DR: Wondering if June 2020 calls are still entitled whiners now that they might be called any time between June 12, 2020 and "the end of the summer"? 

Not sure why this thread got derailed to "all of these entitled BABIES are crying about not being able to post instagram pictures in their robes to flex on their friends", but this is what June 2020 calls are actually annoyed about: 

"The Law Society will commence notifying candidates that they have been administratively licensed in mid-June and will continue to administratively call eligible candidates on a weekly basis until the end of the summer or until all eligible candidates are called. Notifications of licensure will occur every Friday throughout the summer commencing June 12, 2020. Candidates are expected to monitor their online account."

This is incredibly frustrating for candidates who were supposed to be called by June 25th. The entire purpose of the administrative call was to quickly license candidates so that they could practice law. I have already heard of people losing their jobs because they cannot let their employer know when they will...you know...be a lawyer. 

Yes, because what the LSO is saying is that eligible candidates will be called on a weekly basis as soon as their applications are reviewed and completed, instead of waiting until some pre-determined call date.

I don’t know what more you could possibly want than “we’re reviewing all applications as quickly as possible, and once your application is approved we’ll call you that Friday”. Maybe you want them calling people every day until the process is done, but that’s likely to add a significant administrative burden and slow down the overall process. 

The only other option – calling people without reviewing their application – is clearly negligent on the part of the law society and should be a complete non sequitur. 

As for people being let go, if your principal won’t enter into a supervision agreement with you pending your call, you’re realistically being let go because you’re not an economically viable member of the firm and this is a convenient excuse. 

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1 hour ago, admitme said:

 

This is incredibly frustrating for candidates who were supposed to be called by June 25th. The entire purpose of the administrative call was to quickly license candidates so that they could practice law. I have already heard of people losing their jobs because they cannot let their employer know when they will...you know...be a lawyer. 

I just do not believe that a firm decided to not hire someone because they couldn’t wait 1.5 months at the MOST for them to start

 

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46 minutes ago, InsertPseudonymHere said:

I just do not believe that a firm decided to not hire someone because they couldn’t wait 1.5 months at the MOST for them to start

 

Not even for them to start. For them to be able to practice without a supervision agreement. They could start whenever the firm wanted, they would just need to enter into a supervision agreement. 

So yeah, if someone’s been let go because of this, it’s entirely pretextual. 

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2 hours ago, admitme said:

 

TL/DR: Wondering if June 2020 calls are still entitled whiners now that they might be called any time between June 12, 2020 and "the end of the summer"? 

Not sure why this thread got derailed to "all of these entitled BABIES are crying about not being able to post instagram pictures in their robes to flex on their friends", but this is what June 2020 calls are actually annoyed about: 

"The Law Society will commence notifying candidates that they have been administratively licensed in mid-June and will continue to administratively call eligible candidates on a weekly basis until the end of the summer or until all eligible candidates are called. Notifications of licensure will occur every Friday throughout the summer commencing June 12, 2020. Candidates are expected to monitor their online account."

This is incredibly frustrating for candidates who were supposed to be called by June 25th. The entire purpose of the administrative call was to quickly license candidates so that they could practice law. I have already heard of people losing their jobs because they cannot let their employer know when they will...you know...be a lawyer. 

Couldn't this cut both ways? You could all end up getting called EARLIER. 

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There is a limit to how many individuals a lawyer can supervise, I believe it's two. Some shops have their articling students starting now and having additional candidates under supervision agreements could interfere with their ability to onboard their articling students. 

 

I don't know about whether the above is enough for someone to be let go but if someone was planning to try and open their own shop after being licensed even more uncertainty has been added on. I can't imagine it would make job hunting super easy, either, if you're looking for work while you're between having completed articles and being called.

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34 minutes ago, HammurabiTime said:

There is a limit to how many individuals a lawyer can supervise, I believe it's two. Some shops have their articling students starting now and having additional candidates under supervision agreements could interfere with their ability to onboard their articling students. 

 

I don't know about whether the above is enough for someone to be let go but if someone was planning to try and open their own shop after being licensed even more uncertainty has been added on. I can't imagine it would make job hunting super easy, either, if you're looking for work while you're between having completed articles and being called.

How many firms have more than two articling students per lawyer at the firm (and note, the supervising lawyer need not be approved as an articling principal to serve as a supervising lawyer)? I would guess the number is approximately zero.

And again, what’s the alternative? Even if we accept that some minuscule number of candidates may be negatively affected by this, it doesn’t matter if there isn’t a better alternative available. It’s all fine and dandy to complain about bureaucracy, but in the absence of a better idea, it’s really just whining (this is directed generally, not at you specifically, I don’t think you’re whining). 

If someone has a better idea than processing the applications as quickly as possible while calling people on a rolling basis weekly, please go ahead and share it. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm more confused about why there's a need for this to extend beyond June at all. I'm having difficulty understanding what the additional administrative burden would be beyond the normal process, if anything it would seem less onerous than the normal process since there is no physical attendance to arrange for.

I'm not really suggesting any solution beyond additional communication. Transparency would go a hell of a way to assuage concerns. They already have an account they can and do message everyone through. Just explain what the deal is. I know people who were called in May who literally had no idea it happened. Why not send out a message explaining what's going on: 'Hey we're working on this, you may not be notified until tomorrow, we're sorry for the inconvenience'. One individual I spoke to tried calling them repeatedly on the day of and was just sent directly to voicemail...

Edited by HammurabiTime
Grammatical errors.

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47 minutes ago, HammurabiTime said:

I'm more confused about why there's a need for this to extend beyond June at all. I'm having difficulty understanding what the additional administrative burden would be beyond the normal process, if anything it would seem less onerous than the normal process since there is no physical attendance to arrange for.

I'm not really suggesting any solution beyond additional communication. Transparency would go a hell of a way to assuage concerns. They already have an account they can and do message everyone through. Just explain what the deal is. I know people who were called in May who literally had no idea it happened. Why not send out a message explaining what's going on: 'Hey we're working on this, you may not be notified until tomorrow, we're sorry for the inconvenience'. One individual I spoke to tried calling them repeatedly on the day of and was just sent directly to voicemail...

It doesn’t have to extend beyond June, and the LSO hasn’t said it will. They’ve said it will extend until everyone eligible has been called. If everyone gets their paperwork in, properly, and the LSO reviews it all, then the process could be wrapped up by the original call date. 

I’m not sure what more communication you want. They’ve been pretty transparent throughout this entire thing. What information do you feel you’re missing? Eligible candidates will be called the Friday after their application is approved, and they’re reviewing applications as quickly as possible. What’s your question? 

And I’m sorry, but if your friends didn’t know what happened in May, that’s on them. It was pretty clear you’d be called on May 28th, and those called received notification within a day. If I know what’s going on, and I’m not in that licensing group, those in the group should really be capable of figuring it out. 

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59 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

 

I’m not sure what more communication you want. They’ve been pretty transparent throughout this entire thing. What information do you feel you’re missing? Eligible candidates will be called the Friday after their application is approved, and they’re reviewing applications as quickly as possible. What’s your question? 

 

I mean there is somewhat of a lack of transparency, specifically for those working under a supervision agreement

 

I have a friend who has extended their articles. Their firm does not want them to start as a junior right away, but rather wait a of couple weeks. 
 

Essentially this person is to just keep working until they randomly get an email saying they’re called now. At that moment they must stop working. 
 

A heads up from the law society on the Monday prior would make things more transparent.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, InsertPseudonymHere said:

I mean there is somewhat of a lack of transparency, specifically for those working under a supervision agreement

 

I have a friend who has extended their articles. Their firm does not want them to start as a junior right away, but rather wait a of couple weeks. 
 

Essentially this person is to just keep working until they randomly get an email saying they’re called now. At that moment they must stop working. 
 

A heads up from the law society on the Monday prior would make things more transparent.

So your solution is for the LSO to... delay everything on purpose so that they can warn you you’ll be called five days ahead of time, then call you on the Friday? What? Imagine if they did that – people here would be complaining: 

“If they know we’ve satisfied all the requirements, why can’t they just call us immediately? Why are they wasting our time and making us wait a week?”

This is more on your friend’s workplace being weird and not accommodating. They should have just extended him through a set date at a set pay rate, and if he got called before that he can just work through to the end. The only reason that’s a problem for your friend is because his workplace is weird. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

So your solution is for the LSO to... delay everything on purpose so that they can warn you you’ll be called five days ahead of time, then call you on the Friday? What? Imagine if they did that – people here would be complaining: 

“If they know we’ve satisfied all the requirements, why can’t they just call us immediately? Why are they wasting our time and making us wait a week?”

This is more on your friend’s workplace being weird and not accommodating. They should have just extended him through a set date at a set pay rate, and if he got called before that he can just work through to the end. The only reason that’s a problem for your friend is because his workplace is weird. 

Why are you so angry and defensive?

I never once said let’s delay the whole process. Some form of heads up would have been, and would be, nice. 

To randomly get an email on a Friday saying “you’re a lawyer now” is strange, regardless of your current employment situations. 

There’s many implications for my friend. For one, if they get an email at 2:30 but do not realize, continue to work, they’re technically providing legal services without insurance. That’s an issue. If that person is talking to a client at that moment with articling student in their designation, they’re also technically misrepresenting their position.
 

I do not think that above situation fits the narrative you’re trying to spin this to. It’s an issue that could have been resolved initially if the LSO was more transparent with the specific date you were going to be called. Proving a warning email, from the get go, would have resolved this. 
 

Edited by InsertPseudonymHere
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9 minutes ago, InsertPseudonymHere said:

Why are you so angry and defensive?

I never once said let’s delay the whole process. Some form of heads up would have been, and would be, nice. 

To randomly get an email on a Friday saying “you’re a lawyer now” is strange, regardless of your current employment situations. 

There’s many implications for my friend. For one, if they get an email at 2:30 but do not realize, continue to work, they’re technically providing legal services without insurance. That’s an issue. If that person is talking to a client at that moment with articling student in their designation, they’re also technically misrepresenting their position.
 

I do not think that above situation fits the narrative you’re trying to spin this to. It’s an issue that could have been resolved initially if the LSO was more transparent with the specific date you were going to be called. Proving a warning email, from the get go, would have resolved this. 
 

I’m not angry or defensive, I’m pointing out how silly that approach is, and that your friend’s firm sounds unreasonable.

The current process is that once an application is reviewed and approved, it’s placed on the list of people to be called that Friday. The only way you could be given notice the Monday before would be for them to place names on a list to be informed on Monday, then called the following Friday. That introduces an unnecessary one week delay. 

As has been discussed previously, in this thread, you don’t need to wait until you get insurance to start practicing, unless you’re practicing real estate law. You simply have to apply promptly for insurance once you get your LSO number. So no, not an issue.

And I’m sorry, but the idea that it’s some kind of problem if you’re called in the middle of a client meeting, don’t know, and continue to represent yourself as a licensing candidate until you check your email is absolutely absurd. What are you worried about happening? You think the LSO is going to go after someone who said they were a licensing candidate when, as far as they knew, they were still a licensing and not a lawyer? I think the LSO is pretty dumb about a whole bunch of things, but the idea that they’re going to pursue someone for holding themselves out, in good faith, as not a lawyer for an extra twenty minutes is absurd. 

Your friends firm is being silly, your friend is being silly, and this conversation is getting silly.

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And in an attempt to stop the silliness, this discussion is going to take a break.

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