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Articling Hireback 2020

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Posted (edited)

Also @mods can this be moved somewhere else because lots of articling students are tracking this thread for hireback purposes.

Edited by CoffeeandLaw
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8 hours ago, CoffeeandLaw said:

Also @mods can this be moved somewhere else because lots of articling students are tracking this thread for hireback purposes.

Second this. This ranking argument is getting annoying. 

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Has someone posted Fasken/hear anything there? I skimmed back but it wasn’t immediately obvious. I saw a LinkedIn profile suggesting they didn’t hire everyone back; a current articling student is looking for opportunities.

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15 minutes ago, easttowest said:

Has someone posted Fasken/hear anything there? I skimmed back but it wasn’t immediately obvious. I saw a LinkedIn profile suggesting they didn’t hire everyone back; a current articling student is looking for opportunities.

Faskens was about 60%

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Ok everyone, the massive derail is here:

 

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Posted (edited)

Considering all the news about firms firing/laying off associates as well as articling students, I'm a little surprised to hear about these high hire back ratios. Can someone explain?

I also personally didn't get hired back after being told verbally I was and now I'm feeling pretty down and not sure what to do about it. I'm also pretty specific about the area of law I want to get into so I'm not sure where to start.

Edited by teaandWork
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44 minutes ago, teaandWork said:

Considering all the news about firms firing/laying off associates as well as articling students, I'm a little surprised to hear about these high hire back ratios. Can someone explain?

I also personally didn't get hired back after being told verbally I was and now I'm feeling pretty down and not sure what to do about it. I'm also pretty specific about the area of law I want to get into so I'm not sure where to start.

Yikes, that sucks. Sorry to hear that.

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McCague Borlack didn't hire anyone back.

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Not sure I’ve heard this perspective discussed - does anyone think that low hireback numbers might be a good thing about a firm because it means that there are few junior associates leaving and therefore fewer first year associate positions?  My gut feeling is to avoid the firms that will hire 30 first year associates always just to throw them in the water and see who swims. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, kittywhite84 said:

Not sure I’ve heard this perspective discussed - does anyone think that low hireback numbers might be a good thing about a firm because it means that there are few junior associates leaving and therefore fewer first year associate positions?  My gut feeling is to avoid the firms that will hire 30 first year associates always just to throw them in the water and see who swims. 

I just fail to see how low hireback is a good thing for people hoping to start at Firm X. I suppose it would be good for the lucky few who get hired back, but the math would say you’re likely not among those people.

Edited by easttowest

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2 hours ago, kittywhite84 said:

Not sure I’ve heard this perspective discussed - does anyone think that low hireback numbers might be a good thing about a firm because it means that there are few junior associates leaving and therefore fewer first year associate positions?  My gut feeling is to avoid the firms that will hire 30 first year associates always just to throw them in the water and see who swims. 

I think you're conflating hireback (raw) numbers with hireback rates. People in this thread are most concerned with hireback rates. A firm with a great hireback rate may not actually hire that many associates (ie: a smaller firm like Davies may achieve 100% hireback by offering all 10 of their articling students a position whereas McCarthys may have an articling class of 28 students). A firm's ability to hire 10 new associates vs 30 is likely reflective of the actual size of the firm. I don't think much can be inferred from looking at the raw numbers. It would be a little silly to infer that a larger firm is a worse place to work because they need more bodies when in reality the attrition rate is probably the same.

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41 minutes ago, healthlaw said:

I think you're conflating hireback (raw) numbers with hireback rates. People in this thread are most concerned with hireback rates. A firm with a great hireback rate may not actually hire that many associates (ie: a smaller firm like Davies may achieve 100% hireback by offering all 10 of their articling students a position whereas McCarthys may have an articling class of 28 students). A firm's ability to hire 10 new associates vs 30 is likely reflective of the actual size of the firm. I don't think much can be inferred from looking at the raw numbers. It would be a little silly to infer that a larger firm is a worse place to work because they need more bodies when in reality the attrition rate is probably the same.

Hmm. Not really what I meant.  I was thinking of a comparison to firms that would both have a 30 person articling class, but one has more associate spots than the other due to attrition, which you may not realize just looking blindly at the articling hireback rate or number. I guess it depends if you reallllly care about your statistical chances of getting hired into any job or if you’re looking for somewhere that is actually a good place to be for associates right? 

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47 minutes ago, kittywhite84 said:

Hmm. Not really what I meant.  I was thinking of a comparison to firms that would both have a 30 person articling class, but one has more associate spots than the other due to attrition, which you may not realize just looking blindly at the articling hireback rate or number. I guess it depends if you reallllly care about your statistical chances of getting hired into any job or if you’re looking for somewhere that is actually a good place to be for associates right? 

If you look at the precedentjd.com numbers, the only firms that have consistently had classes that even exceeds 20 articling students have been Blakes, McCarthys, Oslers,  and Stikes.. with NRF/BLG also making the odd appearance. So you're only looking at 4-5 firms max in any given year. Again, I really don't think any meaningful inferences can be drawn from looking at these numbers. I certainly wouldn't assume Firm X is "actually a good place to be for associates" because they only hired 16/24 articling students versus Firm Y that hired back 22/24. Yes, firms do hire with attrition in mind (among other considerations) but these figures aren't going to reveal which firm struggles more with retention. 

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Posted (edited)

Davies hired back 9/11 with one student clerking, so practically 9/10.

Edited by Dart
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Hi everyone. I am hoping this is the right thread for this. I was looking for some advice on what to do.

 

I am currently articling at a small PI firm in Ottawa and my articling is finishing on the 13th of May and I am scheduled to be called to the Bar on May 28. I sat down with my principal lawyer earlier this week to see about my hire back. Our discussion seemed to go well, she thought I did a great job with the work, knowledge, and understanding etc.. The other lawyers and staff thought I did a great job too and all have nothing but good things to say about me. But then she said she can't see a long term/good fit because she does not feel as this area of law is something I enjoy and I was just going through the motions so to speak. So it was not going to work out after the 13th.

However, she did not want me to just stop working on the 13th because she wanted me to keep getting paid somehow and did not want me to have any gaps on my resume so she said she will "keep me on" until I find another position even if that takes all summer. She said she will also write a glowing recommendation. I am not sure what to do, if it makes sense to actually reject this arrangement for several reasons. 1) I'm thinking about potential interviews down the line with prospective firms and am trying to figure out how it looks to them that I was essentially hired back as an associate and am already looking for a change. I also don't expect to find anything other than in PI at this point because all of my previous experience is in PI. So to me it just comes off poorly. 2) Financially I was very much underpaid as a student and this discussion did not indicate that I would be paid more for the X amount of time it takes me to find another position. I believe that I would qualify for EI as my contract is over on the 13th. Not sure what that means with CERB happening right now as I believe EI applications are being treated as CERB. If that were the case, CERB would cover about 95% of my weekly pay without the hassle of commuting, (we have no WFH option/our office is spacious and we don't have many employees so social distancing doesn't seem to be a problem but I am still a little concerned about that), and having to work 40+ hours a week. 3) Since COVID I have had very little to do and absolutely no work-related stress which I foresee to continue for the summer as well but I think having a mental recharge and time off, in addition to the above is more beneficial to me. So I think rejecting this arrangement and finish my articling as agreed next week makes more sense. What does everyone think?

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6 minutes ago, willmikemadeit said:

Hi everyone. I am hoping this is the right thread for this. I was looking for some advice on what to do.

 

I am currently articling at a small PI firm in Ottawa and my articling is finishing on the 13th of May and I am scheduled to be called to the Bar on May 28. I sat down with my principal lawyer earlier this week to see about my hire back. Our discussion seemed to go well, she thought I did a great job with the work, knowledge, and understanding etc.. The other lawyers and staff thought I did a great job too and all have nothing but good things to say about me. But then she said she can't see a long term/good fit because she does not feel as this area of law is something I enjoy and I was just going through the motions so to speak. So it was not going to work out after the 13th.

However, she did not want me to just stop working on the 13th because she wanted me to keep getting paid somehow and did not want me to have any gaps on my resume so she said she will "keep me on" until I find another position even if that takes all summer. She said she will also write a glowing recommendation. I am not sure what to do, if it makes sense to actually reject this arrangement for several reasons. 1) I'm thinking about potential interviews down the line with prospective firms and am trying to figure out how it looks to them that I was essentially hired back as an associate and am already looking for a change. I also don't expect to find anything other than in PI at this point because all of my previous experience is in PI. So to me it just comes off poorly. 2) Financially I was very much underpaid as a student and this discussion did not indicate that I would be paid more for the X amount of time it takes me to find another position. I believe that I would qualify for EI as my contract is over on the 13th. Not sure what that means with CERB happening right now as I believe EI applications are being treated as CERB. If that were the case, CERB would cover about 95% of my weekly pay without the hassle of commuting, (we have no WFH option/our office is spacious and we don't have many employees so social distancing doesn't seem to be a problem but I am still a little concerned about that), and having to work 40+ hours a week. 3) Since COVID I have had very little to do and absolutely no work-related stress which I foresee to continue for the summer as well but I think having a mental recharge and time off, in addition to the above is more beneficial to me. So I think rejecting this arrangement and finish my articling as agreed next week makes more sense. What does everyone think?

Aside from the legal issues, I find the idea of voluntarily quitting your job to claim EI/CERB morally objectionable. And yes - you are voluntarily quitting. As you admit, your employer is extending your contract for the summer. There is no issue with "how your job search looks" to prospective employers if the recommendation letter from your current employer explains the situation.

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3 minutes ago, theSquibandtheEye said:

Aside from the legal issues, I find the idea of voluntarily quitting your job to claim EI/CERB morally objectionable. And yes - you are voluntarily quitting. As you admit, your employer is extending your contract for the summer. There is no issue with "how your job search looks" to prospective employers if the recommendation letter from your current employer explains the situation.

How can OP “quit” a job that they have not yet accepted? 

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28 minutes ago, theSquibandtheEye said:

Aside from the legal issues, I find the idea of voluntarily quitting your job to claim EI/CERB morally objectionable. And yes - you are voluntarily quitting. As you admit, your employer is extending your contract for the summer. There is no issue with "how your job search looks" to prospective employers if the recommendation letter from your current employer explains the situation.

My articling agreement is over on May 13th. If my principal offers me an extension, I don't have any obligation to take said offer.

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3 hours ago, CoffeeandLaw said:

Stikes hired 20/25.

Any opt outs ?

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