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Ryerson v. Windsor

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NeverGiveUp said:

Ryerson will be a better school than Windsor in the near future due to its better location.

I know you’ve given up, but I’d note that I’ve met a bunch of truly excellent criminal and other litigation lawyers who went to Windsor. I mean, that’s anecdotal, but Windsor isn’t the bottom of the barrel school some make it out to be. 

Edited by realpseudonym
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OP, when you say you want to land a “good paying job in Toronto” to pay off your debts are you referring to pursuing big law for a few years before human rights law? Or are you just referring to a job in the GTA outside of big law? 

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27 minutes ago, Lawstudent97 said:

OP, when you say you want to land a “good paying job in Toronto” to pay off your debts are you referring to pursuing big law for a few years before human rights law? Or are you just referring to a job in the GTA outside of big law? 

I really mean any job that will help me pay off my debts and if that means I am able to get a job in BigLaw then I would for sure take that opportunity (I know how hard it is but that would be my goal). But any job that would sustain my living in Toronto and paying off law school debt (which also depends on where I move during law school as Toronto is more expensive to live than Windsor would be). 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, vvvv12345 said:

I really mean any job that will help me pay off my debts and if that means I am able to get a job in BigLaw then I would for sure take that opportunity (I know how hard it is but that would be my goal). But any job that would sustain my living in Toronto and paying off law school debt (which also depends on where I move during law school as Toronto is more expensive to live than Windsor would be). 

Okay so I'm interpreting your position to be that you would obviously take a biglaw job if the opportunity arose, but you would still be happy with another job if it didn't work out. In that case I think windsor is a perfect school for you. 

I'm a 0L starting at osgoode in the fall. During my own research i came to the conclusion that if you are "big law or bust" (i.e., if you don't land a biglaw position you wouldn't be happy with your choice of going to law school) than you should either not go to law school at all, or go to either UofT, osgoode, queens or western. This is because the placement rates from the other schools aren't high enough to justify the degree if biglaw is your only goal. (I'm talking ontario here)

However, in your situation if biglaw is one goal, but in no means the only reason you would go to law school, then schools like windsor and ottawa make a lot of sense. They will lead to very good non-biglaw jobs and if you end up crushing law school, big law will be an option for you. If i were you I would choose windsor over ryerson because windsor is the more established school. Im not sure the location of ryerson will make much of a difference (its not like ryerson is a top school in any other area of study because of its location.... apart from maybe sports broadcasting). 

Just my 2 cents based off my own research that I did when making my own decision of where to attend school. Best of luck :)

Edited by Lawstudent97
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Okay, so tuition at Ryerson is $21,000 per year.  Tuition at Windsor is $16,000 per year.  Plus Windsor is a cheaper city to live in (since OP will have to move anyways).

Before you even start analyzing the fact that Ryerson is a new school, I think Windsor sounds like the more sensible option.

The one proviso is that if the OP was only accepted into the Windsor Dual JD program, which has you simultaneously paying tuition at two schools to the tune of $40,000 per year, then the tables flip decisively in favour of Ryerson.

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On 3/3/2020 at 12:19 PM, Lawstudent97 said:

Okay so I'm interpreting your position to be that you would obviously take a biglaw job if the opportunity arose, but you would still be happy with another job if it didn't work out. In that case I think windsor is a perfect school for you. 

I'm a 0L starting at osgoode in the fall. During my own research i came to the conclusion that if you are "big law or bust" (i.e., if you don't land a biglaw position you wouldn't be happy with your choice of going to law school) than you should either not go to law school at all, or go to either UofT, osgoode, queens or western. This is because the placement rates from the other schools aren't high enough to justify the degree if biglaw is your only goal. (I'm talking ontario here)

However, in your situation if biglaw is one goal, but in no means the only reason you would go to law school, then schools like windsor and ottawa make a lot of sense. They will lead to very good non-biglaw jobs and if you end up crushing law school, big law will be an option for you. If i were you I would choose windsor over ryerson because windsor is the more established school. Im not sure the location of ryerson will make much of a difference (its not like ryerson is a top school in any other area of study because of its location.... apart from maybe sports broadcasting). 

Just my 2 cents based off my own research that I did when making my own decision of where to attend school. Best of luck :)

Thank you so much for your information! It is really helpful and congrats on Osgoode! I would def go there if I got in but sadly it is unlikely. 

23 hours ago, Malicious Prosecutor said:

Okay, so tuition at Ryerson is $21,000 per year.  Tuition at Windsor is $16,000 per year.  Plus Windsor is a cheaper city to live in (since OP will have to move anyways).

Before you even start analyzing the fact that Ryerson is a new school, I think Windsor sounds like the more sensible option.

The one proviso is that if the OP was only accepted into the Windsor Dual JD program, which has you simultaneously paying tuition at two schools to the tune of $40,000 per year, then the tables flip decisively in favour of Ryerson.

Very true, and I am definitely now heavily leaning on Windsor. Thanks!

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My colleague and I were going through summer student applications the other day. While we obviously looked at each one individually, I immediately felt an affinity towards those students who went to Western, who had competed in the same moots I had competed in and later judged, and who had been involved in the same clinics where I was involved. My colleague who went to Windsor immediately was drawn to the candidates from Windsor who she felt had similar experiences to herself. While we all judge candidates on their merits, these intangible factors do end up playing a role. 

Nobody reading your job application will ever have gone to Ryerson. 

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Windsor hands down. Ryerson is a new law school with no alumni network.  Ryerson is more expensive. Toronto is much more expensive to live in than Windsor . Ryerson will be the lowest ranked law school in Toronto and Ryerson has no cred on Bay street, as it is unknown.

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17 hours ago, beyondsection17 said:

My colleague and I were going through summer student applications the other day. While we obviously looked at each one individually, I immediately felt an affinity towards those students who went to Western, who had competed in the same moots I had competed in and later judged, and who had been involved in the same clinics where I was involved. My colleague who went to Windsor immediately was drawn to the candidates from Windsor who she felt had similar experiences to herself. While we all judge candidates on their merits, these intangible factors do end up playing a role. 

Nobody reading your job application will ever have gone to Ryerson. 

This is a totally normal response, and also a perfect example of why lawyers probably shouldn't be trusted to hire more lawyers. 

Definitely not meant as an attack on you, more on the system itself. 

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19 minutes ago, easttowest said:

This is a totally normal response, and also a perfect example of why lawyers probably shouldn't be trusted to hire more lawyers. 

Definitely not meant as an attack on you, more on the system itself. 

Isn't this the case in any field though? Human biases and unconscious behaviour can influence the person making hiring decisions in a variety of ways - school alma mater is just one factor. Maybe there is an activity on the resume that draws the person in like tennis or juggling. 

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I feel that Windsor is just safer to go, because at least you know people have gone to Windsor and become successful. Wherefore Ryerson, has zero statistics on their successful placement rates, nor an establish alumni network. Their whole philosophy and approach on law school education is perhaps too innovative for most traditionalist firms (really depends on what you want to practice). Ryerson doesn't have a very good reputation as a school in Toronto either, or so I've heard from locals...

Among the expenses with living in Toronto, tuition at Ryerson, and potential biases on hiring, Windsor is a SAFE* bet. 
Also, if you don't like Windsor, you could always just transfer after your first or second year too. You're not locked down anywhere as a side note. 
 

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Just now, Deadpool said:

Isn't this the case in any field though? Human biases and unconscious behaviour can influence the person making hiring decisions in a variety of ways - school alma mater is just one factor. Maybe there is an activity on the resume that draws the person in like tennis or juggling. 

Yes, which is why large companies in many fields stick HR between the candidate and the team the candidate is going into. 

 

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On 3/3/2020 at 10:44 AM, Deadpool said:

No school makes you successful, unless maybe if you went to Harvard. You determine your own outcome. Schools only provide you with an education and opportunities. Windsor has many opportunities by virtue of it being more established. I went to Osgoode and work in Toronto with lawyers from many different schools, including Windsor. Windsor's focus is in social justice, which it seems like you are also focused on. Their academic requirements are less than that of other schools like U of T, Osgoode, Western, and Queen's which is one reason why it may not have as strong of a reputation. But if you want work in social justice areas and are not Bay Street or Bust, which it seems like you are not, then Windsor will do just fine. The school you attend doesn't matter as much in Canada, and really is a non-existent factor once you obtain your first job. 

Have you taken a look at their course selection, clinical opportunities, student clubs, etc.? I would focus less on location and reputation and more on the individual opportunities each school offers. Just because you are in the inaugural class of Ryerson does not mean that they are going to set you up with your dream job at the UN. Manage your expectations. There is a limit to what schools can do for you - the bulk of the legwork will be on you to secure a position that you enjoy and feel fulfilled in. 

This is very important to remember!!!!

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Posted (edited)
On 3/3/2020 at 1:10 PM, Malicious Prosecutor said:

Okay, so tuition at Ryerson is $21,000 per year.  Tuition at Windsor is $16,000 per year.  Plus Windsor is a cheaper city to live in (since OP will have to move anyways).

Before you even start analyzing the fact that Ryerson is a new school, I think Windsor sounds like the more sensible option.

The one proviso is that if the OP was only accepted into the Windsor Dual JD program, which has you simultaneously paying tuition at two schools to the tune of $40,000 per year, then the tables flip decisively in favour of Ryerson.

I’m in this exact position right now. I have been accepted to the Dual JD at Windsor and at Ryerson Law, but I was leaning more towards the Dual JD because of the exact reasons that have been outlined about Ryerson above. Just curious as to why tuition cost alone should result in choosing Ryerson over a more established school? While I’m aware that the American JD is not that valuable, wouldn't it still be to my advantage to go to a more established school that would provide me with experiential learning opportunities and a wide network of alumni? I’m scared to go to Ryerson Law and spend over $80,000 in tuition and fees, and be left with no job to pay it back. I’d like to note that my main goal is also to work in big law.

Edited by lawgal17

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4 minutes ago, lawgal17 said:

I’m in this exact position right now. I have been accepted to the Dual JD at Windsor and at Ryerson Law, but I was leaning more towards the Dual JD because of the exact reasons that have been outlined about Ryerson above. Just curious as to why tuition cost alone should result in choosing Ryerson over a more established school? While I’m aware that the American JD is not that valuable, wouldn't it still be to my advantage to go to a more established school that would provide me with experiential learning opportunities and a wide network of alumni? I’m scared to go to Ryerson Law and spend over $80,000 in tuition and fees, and be left with no job to pay it back. I’d like to note that my main goal is also to work in big law.

If you do not want to work in the United states, I advise you to choose Ryerson law over the Windsor dual JD. The dual program is prohibitively expensive.

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13 minutes ago, lawgal17 said:

I’m in this exact position right now. I have been accepted to the Dual JD at Windsor and at Ryerson Law, but I was leaning more towards the Dual JD because of the exact reasons that have been outlined about Ryerson above. Just curious as to why tuition cost alone should result in choosing Ryerson over a more established school? While I’m aware that the American JD is not that valuable, wouldn't it still be to my advantage to go to a more established school that would provide me with experiential learning opportunities and a wide network of alumni? I’m scared to go to Ryerson Law and spend over $80,000 in tuition and fees, and be left with no job to pay it back. I’d like to note that my main goal is also to work in big law.

Biglaw placement rates out of Windsor are low. It's certainly not justified enough to fork out double what Ryerson would cost you. 

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My issue with Ryerson is that it's not established. I think your law school experience sets you up for success, and that includes the wide network of people you meet as well as clinical opportunities. Don't you think that a lower placement rate out of windsor is better than a 0% placement rate at Ryerson?

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, lawgal17 said:

My issue with Ryerson is that it's not established. I think your law school experience sets you up for success, and that includes the wide network of people you meet as well as clinical opportunities. Don't you think that a lower placement rate out of windsor is better than a 0% placement rate at Ryerson?

Ryerson will have clinical opportunities, the people I gather at least from the accepted thread seem interesting and eager to succeed, and it's speculative to presume that no one will get a job, or the placement rate will be 0%. People thought similar things about TRU when it started out and there are TRU grads working in Biglaw. The choice is yours but if you're taking out loans to pay for law school, you should know that if you do not land a Biglaw job (or land one and don't last a few years in it), paying back 150-250k in debt is a monstrous task.

Edited by Deadpool

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1 hour ago, lawgal17 said:

I’m in this exact position right now. I have been accepted to the Dual JD at Windsor and at Ryerson Law, but I was leaning more towards the Dual JD because of the exact reasons that have been outlined about Ryerson above. Just curious as to why tuition cost alone should result in choosing Ryerson over a more established school? While I’m aware that the American JD is not that valuable, wouldn't it still be to my advantage to go to a more established school that would provide me with experiential learning opportunities and a wide network of alumni? I’m scared to go to Ryerson Law and spend over $80,000 in tuition and fees, and be left with no job to pay it back. I’d like to note that my main goal is also to work in big law.

Reading this makes me sad. I know that nothing I can say will make you reconsider your goals. I also know a lot of great lawyers from stronger schools with far less debt that struggled to the point of near-bankruptcy during their first few years of practice. These were perfectly ordinary hard working and intelligent law students.

You say you are scared of going to Ryerson law and spending so much and being left with no job, but you fail to realize that the likely outcome from either program is a job that will not pay enough to have a good life and repay the debt. You should be scared of the debt from Ryerson, but you should be petrified by the debt from the dual.

Getting a big firm job from either of these schools would be an outlier, for the large majority of students you are looking at a pretty ordinary job with an extraordinary amount of debt. The dual program is only financially reasonable with a big law job, but that is a <20% outcome to start. But it gets worse because it is only reasonable with a big law job held for a long time since the vast majority of people leave big law in the first 5 years this is probably a sub 5% outcome. 

 

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