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lolnope

JD/MBA odds of admission + General questions for alumni/current students

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Hi all,

Background: I've received my admission to the UofT Law program with a 174 LSAT and 3.7 B3 K-JD. I interviewed 2 weeks ago, and have not heard back so I'm a bit anxious right now. Does anyone know how many students interview for the combined degree programs in general, more specifically JD/MBA, and how many are granted admission? Are my odds okay?

Additional questions: (1) Are you supposed to take additional courses during the summer in third year?

                                       (2) I know that JD/MBA students have good odds of NY Law, but how does the connection process work - are there online mentorship programs available?

                                       (3) Why has the Rotman reputation declined since 2016 according to the Financial Times ranking system? It was previously within the top 50 in the world/20 in North America between 2012-2015, and now it's steadily fallen to the 85-100 range globally and nearly 50th place in North America. Are the rankings just really volatile, or is there something happening with the program?

Thanks

Edited by lolnope

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3 hours ago, laststarr said:

question - i thought uoft law didnt interview? 

No it doesn't, I meant I did the interview for Rotman MBA, sorry. 

I got in, so no more anxiety lol. But the additional questions still stand if anyone wouldn't mind sharing their insight. 

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School ranking is always biased. I won't worry about it. There is no summer courses but I am not sure when you are supposed to take the MBA courses. Pls check out the u of t law website for curriculum specs and timing.

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On 2/25/2020 at 2:10 AM, lolnope said:

(3) Why has the Rotman reputation declined since 2016 according to the Financial Times ranking system? It was previously within the top 50 in the world/20 in North America between 2012-2015, and now it's steadily fallen to the 85-100 range globally and nearly 50th place in North America. Are the rankings just really volatile, or is there something happening with the program?

Thanks

https://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/Degrees/MastersPrograms/MBAPrograms/FullTimeMBA/StudentLife/ClassProfile

An MBA in Canada has become dime a dozen as these MBA programs are cashcows now for universities. It's the go to program for international students who want to gain Canadian experience and apply for permanent residency in Canada. Rotman has a fairly big class and is not difficult to get into either. There may be merit to doing the JD/MBA at U of T depending on your career goals, but the real value comes from the JD and not the MBA. If you were doing the MBA as a standalone degree, it doesn't hold as much water as it did years ago. I don't think any Canadian MBA program is top 50 in the world except for maybe Ivey. 

Edited by Deadpool
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1 hour ago, Deadpool said:

https://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/Degrees/MastersPrograms/MBAPrograms/FullTimeMBA/StudentLife/ClassProfile

An MBA in Canada has become dime a dozen as these MBA programs are cashcows now for universities. It's the go to program for international students who want to gain Canadian experience and apply for permanent residency in Canada. Rotman has a fairly big class and is not difficult to get into either. There may be merit to doing the JD/MBA at U of T depending on your career goals, but the real value comes from the JD and not the MBA. If you were doing the MBA as a standalone degree, it doesn't hold as much water as it did years ago. I don't think any Canadian MBA program is top 50 in the world except for maybe Ivey. 

>Cash-cows

MBAs have been cash-cows for all universities for the past two decades if not three. Obviously, the bull run has been faltering since the stock market crash, but the reputation of a good MBA is still there. Then again, I'm not interested in debating the merit of an MBA, just seeking information about what triggered the reputation change.

>Reputational change

I don' think that Rotman's standards or class profile have changed considerably. Given that (1) Rotman's class size has been 300-350 for a good decade; (2) its alumni have been 45-55% international students since 2012; and (3) the GMAT average being steady at 650-690, I think something else is causing the significant reputation change.

Interestingly, all the big MBAs in Canada have significantly dropped in rankings since 2015/6. Rotman in the 40s between  2011-14, Ivey at 46 in 2011 and 68 in 2012, Desautel in the 60s between 2011-12,  Schulich in the 70s have now all dropped to the 80s and 90s since 2016, with Schulich no longer being ranked. Of course, this is just one ranking system — one can look at Businessweek or Forbes to see different ranking tiers in Canada.

Clearly, the problem is multifaceted and likely intertwined with the Canadian market. Some online sources I've consulted partially blame the drop on (1) the ranking methodology heavily emphasizing post-MBA increased wages reported in PPP, which inherently inflate the value of MBAs in developing countries; and (2) a declining job market and currency value (currency value has plummeted since 2015). You could also be onto something regarding the tidbit about international students. If 50% of the class are international students, then the ones who were keen on applying to Rotman 10 years ago have now decided to stay in their home country due to a rapidly developing education system (especially in China), then the current international applicants are less valuable.

Nonetheless, I find it hard to believe that a 50 point drop is possible without some internal complications within Rotman. Perhaps (1) the class teaching styles changed; (2) the recent innovative features (e.g., Self-Development Lab) aren't as impressive as their predecessors; or (3) Rotman has severed ties with essential connections and/or donors.

I'd be very interested in hearing from the experiencing of alumni, especially those who attended school between 2013-2016.

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21 minutes ago, lolnope said:

>Cash-cows

MBAs have been cash-cows for all universities for the past two decades if not three. Obviously, the bull run has been faltering since the stock market crash, but the reputation of a good MBA is still there. Then again, I'm not interested in debating the merit of an MBA, just seeking information about what triggered the reputation change.

>Reputational change

I don' think that Rotman's standards or class profile have changed considerably. Given that (1) Rotman's class size has been 300-350 for a good decade; (2) its alumni have been 45-55% international students since 2012; and (3) the GMAT average being steady at 650-690, I think something else is causing the significant reputation change.

Interestingly, all the big MBAs in Canada have significantly dropped in rankings since 2015/6. Rotman in the 40s between  2011-14, Ivey at 46 in 2011 and 68 in 2012, Desautel in the 60s between 2011-12,  Schulich in the 70s have now all dropped to the 80s and 90s since 2016, with Schulich no longer being ranked. Of course, this is just one ranking system — one can look at Businessweek or Forbes to see different ranking tiers in Canada.

Clearly, the problem is multifaceted and likely intertwined with the Canadian market. Some online sources I've consulted partially blame the drop on (1) the ranking methodology heavily emphasizing post-MBA increased wages reported in PPP, which inherently inflate the value of MBAs in developing countries; and (2) a declining job market and currency value (currency value has plummeted since 2015). You could also be onto something regarding the tidbit about international students. If 50% of the class are international students, then the ones who were keen on applying to Rotman 10 years ago have now decided to stay in their home country due to a rapidly developing education system (especially in China), then the current international applicants are less valuable.

Nonetheless, I find it hard to believe that a 50 point drop is possible without some internal complications within Rotman. Perhaps (1) the class teaching styles changed; (2) the recent innovative features (e.g., Self-Development Lab) aren't as impressive as their predecessors; or (3) Rotman has severed ties with essential connections and/or donors.

I'd be very interested in hearing from the experiencing of alumni, especially those who attended school between 2013-2016.

There are lots of Rotman MBA alumni and folks more knowledgeable about the program on these forums:

https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/careers-f58/

https://gmatclub.com/forum/business-school-and-mba-115/

 I suggest asking your questions there.

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45 minutes ago, lolnope said:

Nonetheless, I find it hard to believe that a 50 point drop is possible without some internal complications within Rotman. Perhaps (1) the class teaching styles changed; (2) the recent innovative features (e.g., Self-Development Lab) aren't as impressive as their predecessors; or (3) Rotman has severed ties with essential connections and/or donors.

It's been a while since I looked at the Financial Times methodology, but it isn't clear to me how these sorts of factors would affect ranking. To the best of my recollection, the ranking is based primarily on research output, school data (things like diversity), and financial factors (how much salary increased after taking the program, tuition, etc.).

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2 hours ago, ProfReader said:

To the best of my recollection, the ranking is based primarily on research output, school data (things like diversity), and financial factors (how much salary increased after taking the program, tuition, etc.).

You're right, it's probably mostly due to lowered post-MBA earnings adjusted per PPP, and higher tuition costs. UofT's "value" score has gone down from the top 50 to 90s, mostly due to its increased tuition However, there is an "aims achieved" factor and and student satisfaction score. "Aims achieved" in particular has gone down significantly.

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Thanks for the post! 

I am also thinking about the JD/MBA program and got accepted to the JD program last month. I thought I was supposed to apply after  1L? Could you please disclose more details about the application process if possible? Thanks! 

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5 minutes ago, Sebzhou said:

I thought I was supposed to apply after  1L? Could you please disclose more details about the application process if possible? 

You can apply for the JD/MBA before 1L. You have to be accepted into the Rotman program independently, so 3.5-6 average GPA, some work experience, and 670-75 GMAT score. If your LSAT is above a 166 they waive the GMAT requirement.

Have go through a separate online application process involving a video interview and some essay questions. Then if successful they'll ask you to come in for a 30 minute interview. 

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On 2/25/2020 at 2:10 AM, lolnope said:

(2) I know that JD/MBA students have good odds of NY Law, but how does the connection process work - are there online mentorship programs available?

Informal for the JD & JD/MBA going to new york. I've always gotten the impression that it's easier to go to NY w/ an MBA but your results may vary. 

Also, no summer classes. 

Look, if you want to go to NY biglaw, then just go to a T14 school. I've always considered the MBA program useless and a complete waste of money unless (a) you want to go to NY Biglaw or (b) you want to go into finance. 

NY is easier w/ the JD/MBA but it's by no means guaranteed the way it is in T14 schools.

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On 2/27/2020 at 11:20 PM, Sebzhou said:

Thanks for the post! 

I am also thinking about the JD/MBA program and got accepted to the JD program last month. I thought I was supposed to apply after  1L? Could you please disclose more details about the application process if possible? Thanks! 

you can apply during 1L. lots of opportunities. they're begging you to take the Jd/mba b/c the MBA is a huge money maker for the school. see above on why i think it's a complete waste of money.

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