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albertabean

U of T = U of C + car + apartment down payment

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14 minutes ago, BigLaw101 said:

A bit off topic but I'm wondering where are you taking this from? I would think Montreal and Vancouver have larger legal markets than Calgary but I'd be interested to see your source(s)!

As far as I can tell it's based on some data analysis done on biglaw hiring statistics in 2011 (scrolling through the forum) which has a dead link. It's also on UCalgary's website, although I imagine that is a bit of a marketing ploy.

I too would be genuinely curious if someone has a source for this, the phrase "second biggest legal market" seems like a bit of a platitude at this point

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24 minutes ago, albertabean said:

I know I like the curriculum more at U of T - I'm not into U of C's "practical" curriculum. But I do wonder whether it really makes sense to go to U of T considering this:

Toronto has 3 enormous law school's in it now. Nearly all of those students will be competing for articling jobs in the city, not to mention a significant portion of pretty much every other law school in Ontario will descend upon the city like locusts for articling/jobs. I know it's the biggest legal market in Canada, however, Calgary is the 2nd largest legal market and UCalgary is the only school in the city (graduating 130 students per year). 

...am I missing something? Is it really this cut and dry?

I would love a great reason to go UofT because I way prefer the school, but for $100000 extra debt and arguably a harder job market it seems foolish. Please god tell me I'm missing something.

University of Alberta has basically equal access to the Calgary market. Similarly, all Ontario law schools compete for Toronto jobs. It doesn't matter that Ryerson is in Toronto, it is very unlikely to place better than Queens or Western on Bay street. 

Calgary has the 2nd biggest big firm legal market, but obviously it doesn't have as many lawyers as the provinces that are far larger in population (https://flsc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2017-Stats-Report.pdf). The crux of it is if you want to do good high end corporate work, Calgary is a pretty good place to be since a lot of companies western Canadian headquarters are there. 

 

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Go to UBC:

(a) less expensive than U of T, even less expensive than U of C;

(b) likely more "academic" in style than U of C; 

(c) easy access to the mountains; and, 

(d) a diverse legal job market. 

 

Among many other advantages. 

Housing costs, despite what you may have heard, are comparable. 

Edited by QuincyWagstaff

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1 hour ago, albertabean said:

I know I like the curriculum more at U of T - I'm not into U of C's "practical" curriculum. 

You are overthinking this. The curriculum is VERY similar. The differences are largely small but have been branded as "skills-based" to appeal to prospective students/employers.

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1 minute ago, QuincyWagstaff said:

Go to UBC:

(a) less expensive than U of T, even less expensive than U of C;

(b) likely more "academic" in style than U of C; 

(c) easy access to the mountains; and, 

(d) a diverse legal job market. 

 

Ah yes, didn't apply there 😕Totally agree, although I really don't like Vancouver so it's not a great place for me to lock myself into anyways.

 

1 minute ago, ProfReader said:

You are overthinking this. The curriculum is VERY similar. The differences are largely small but have been branded as "skills-based" to appeal to prospective students/employers.

Do you think? I'm not so sure. I've chatted with the Dean at UCalgary Law and even if the curriculum isn't very different they have certainly done strange things to the flow of a school semester. Infinite block week courses, just infinite. I'd much rather learn the material piecemeal week-by-week than altogether in 2 weeks 9-5, it just seems like a lot of material to digest in such a small time. 

I also know UCalgary generally as a university makes a big push for students to find employment in the energy sector, which I couldn't be less interested in. 

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9 minutes ago, ProfReader said:

You are overthinking this. The curriculum is VERY similar. The differences are largely small but have been branded as "skills-based" to appeal to prospective students/employers.

I, like most, only ever attended one law school. But, from what I've gleaned over the years, this applies across the Country - law schools teach the same basic curriculum in largely the same way. For the most part, the differences are marketing, etc. 

 

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19 minutes ago, albertabean said:

]Do you think? I'm not so sure. I've chatted with the Dean at UCalgary Law and even if the curriculum isn't very different they have certainly done strange things to the flow of a school semester. Infinite block week courses, just infinite. I'd much rather learn the material piecemeal week-by-week than altogether in 2 weeks 9-5, it just seems like a lot of material to digest in such a small time. 

I don't just think, I know. Calling four block week courses spread across 3 years "infinite" is extremely dramatic. Several schools have 3 block weeks (1 in each year). The UofT does two block weeks as well. One in first year (Legal Methods) and one in upper year.

Edited by ProfReader

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19 minutes ago, QuincyWagstaff said:

I, like most, only ever attended one law school. But, from what I've gleaned over the years, this applies across the Country - law schools teach the same basic curriculum in largely the same way. For the most part, the differences are marketing, etc. 

 

You are absolutely correct. I have also only attended one law school for my JD, but have taught at a few and have been on a curriculum review committee (in which we looked at other schools). This is definitely my experience.

Edited by ProfReader

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11 minutes ago, ProfReader said:

I don't just think, I know. Calling four block week courses spread across 3 years "infinite" is extremely dramatic. Several schools have 3 block weeks (1 in each year). The UofT does two block weeks as well. One in first year (Legal Methods) and one in upper year.

U of C does not do 4 block weeks, it does 12 block weeks over the course of the degree.

Edited by albertabean

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3 minutes ago, albertabean said:

U of C does not do 4 block weeks, it does 12 block weeks over the course of the degree.

What would those 12 be? I'm looking at their website right now and there are two in first year (Foundations 1 and 2) and one each in second (Negotiations) and third year (Advocacy). What are the other eight? 

Edited by ProfReader

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1 minute ago, ProfReader said:

What would those 12 be? I'm looking at their website right now and there are two in first year (Foundations 1 and 2) and one each in second (Negotiations) and third year (Advocacy). What are the other eight? 

https://law.ucalgary.ca/sites/default/files/teams/2/important-dates_students_2019-20.pdf

You do 3 at the start of 1st year, it is only one course but is 3 weeks of 9-5. And then the Foundations, Negotations and Advocacy Ones are also 3 weeks each. Making 12 weeks of block-week courses.

Call it dramatic, but in my experience at U of C, block week courses come at a huge cost to student mental health and is definitely something I am factoring into my decision. 

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5 minutes ago, albertabean said:

https://law.ucalgary.ca/sites/default/files/teams/2/important-dates_students_2019-20.pdf

You do 3 at the start of 1st year, it is only one course but is 3 weeks of 9-5. And then the Foundations, Negotations and Advocacy Ones are also 3 weeks each. Making 12 weeks of block-week courses.

Call it dramatic, but in my experience at U of C, block week courses come at a huge cost to student mental health and is definitely something I am factoring into my decision. 

No, you are reading this wrong. You only do one at the start of first year. It is called Foundations 1. You counting that as three courses (when it is only one) is disingenuous. It is also just plain wrong, since you are not taking twelve block courses. But that bizarre counting methodology (based on the number of weeks and not the actual number of courses) other schools also have numerous block weeks.

Edited by ProfReader

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7 minutes ago, albertabean said:

https://law.ucalgary.ca/sites/default/files/teams/2/important-dates_students_2019-20.pdf

You do 3 at the start of 1st year, it is only one course but is 3 weeks of 9-5. And then the Foundations, Negotations and Advocacy Ones are also 3 weeks each. Making 12 weeks of block-week courses.

Call it dramatic, but in my experience at U of C, block week courses come at a huge cost to student mental health and is definitely something I am factoring into my decision. 

 

Your mental health might very well take a beating at some point during your law school experience, but it is unlikely to be the result of some "Foundations" course during the first three weeks of your 1L year (a lot of your class will spend those weeks drunk). 

I don't know anything about U of C's "Advocacy" and "Negotiations" courses, but they are probably pretty fluffy. Those sorts of things normally are; are they pass/fail?  

Edited by QuincyWagstaff

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1 minute ago, ProfReader said:

No, you are reading this wrong. You only do 1 at the start of first year. It is called Foundations 1. You counting that as three courses when it is only one is disingenuous.  But that bizarre counting methodology (based on the number of weeks and not the actual number of courses) other schools also have numerous block weeks.

I don't think it's at all disingenuous given that there are literally 12 blocked weeks, I don't know how I can be any clearer.  Frankly I couldn't care less whether it's 12 different courses over 12 weeks or 4 over 12 weeks, it's still 12 weeks of 9-5 class.

Anyways, I'd like to close the book on this portion of the discussion, as you're clearly more interested in debating semantics than the actual substance of what I am saying.

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Just now, albertabean said:

I don't think it's at all disingenuous given that there are literally 12 blocked weeks, I don't know how I can be any clearer.  Frankly I couldn't care less whether it's 12 different courses over 12 weeks or 4 over 12 weeks, it's still 12 weeks of 9-5 class.

Anyways, I'd like to close the book on this portion of the discussion, as you're clearly more interested in debating semantics than the actual substance of what I am saying.

I said there are four block week courses and you corrected me to say twelve. You are the one debating semantics. You are also wrong. It is literally four block week courses.

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4 minutes ago, QuincyWagstaff said:

 

Your mental health might very well take a beating at some point during your law school experience, but it is unlikely to be the result of some "Foundations" course during the first three weeks of your 1L year (a lot of your class will spend those weeks drunk). 

I don't know anything about U of C's "Advocacy" and "Negotiations" courses, but they are probably pretty fluffy. Those sorts of things normally are; are they pass/fail?  

I mean, I've done 5 of them in my Master's and they were honestly an absolute travesty. They truly, truly wrecked the stamina and mental well-being of my class (such that many professors and remarked on it) for the upcoming semesters of school.  I am not speaking flippantly, I have experience with U of C's "innovative" block-weeks. I also know people in the program and they are not "fluffy" at all.

Edited by albertabean

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1 minute ago, ProfReader said:

I said there are four block week courses and you corrected me to say twelve. You are the one debating semantics. You are also wrong. It is literally four block week courses.

You are completely derailing this conversation with your obsession over semantics. You want to be the one who is right? Fine, you're right. Now please stop.

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8 minutes ago, albertabean said:

I mean, I've done 5 of them in my Master's and they were honestly an absolute travesty. They truly, truly wrecked the stamina and mental well-being of my class (such that many professors and remarked on it) for the upcoming semesters of school.  I am not speaking flippantly, I have experience with U of C's "innovative" block-weeks. I also people in the program and they are not "fluffy" at all.

I am speaking about "negotiation" and "advocacy" courses in law school in general. 

I'm sure some current U of C law students don't think they are. 

ETA: Well, well, well, I took time out of my day to look up  the U of C Law course Guide:

 

Advocacy =  Credit/D/F! 

Negotiation =  Credit/D/F! 

There you go. 

Edited by QuincyWagstaff

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1 minute ago, albertabean said:

I mean, I've done 5 of them in my Master's and they were honestly an absolute travesty. They truly, truly wrecked the stamina and mental well-being of my class (such that many professors and remarked on it) for the upcoming semesters of school.  I am not speaking flippantly, I have experience with U of C's "innovative" block-weeks. I also know people in the program and they are not "fluffy" at all.

I'm not sure why you think the block courses are the same in the undergraduate program as in law. While the courses aren't "fluff", they are pass/fail, which is not the case with the block courses in other faculties.

Just now, albertabean said:

You are completely derailing this conversation with your obsession over semantics. You want to be the one who is right? Fine, you're right. Now please stop.

I find you very unlikable so I don't particularly care about helping you, but I definitely don't want other students to come on here and have misconceptions about Calgary's program. You are equally responsible for derailing this conversation in responding to every single one of my posts. You could have just left it at four courses several posts ago.

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6 minutes ago, ProfReader said:

I'm not sure why you think the block courses are the same in the undergraduate program as in law. While the courses aren't "fluff", they are pass/fail, which is not the case with the block courses in other faculties.

I find you very unlikable so I don't particularly care about helping you, but I definitely don't want other students to come on here and have misconceptions about Calgary's program. You are equally responsible for derailing this conversation in responding to every single one of my posts. You could have just left it at four courses several posts ago.

I misspoke; I don't mean "fluff". Advocacy and Negotiation are probably some of the more useful courses in law school, for most lawyers. 

What I mean is, they shouldn't be a source of stress, as no one really fails anything in law school, never mind a pass/fail course. 

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