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CliveMc

Should one pursue the easiest and quickest road to get articling out of the way?

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Hello everyone. I have been searching for an articling position since last Fall and had no success. I actually have quite few contacts who were able to refer me to firms/practitioners they know but none of them were taking/willing to take an articling student. 

A little bit of background. I graduated from law school quite few years ago and have since worked in non-law related areas, originally in the GTA area and eventually I relocated to BC because my mother have moved back here (her hometown) and she needs regular assistance. Since last year, I have been trying to come back to law. But in addition to those few years of hiatus which some, if not most, employers would consider a competitive disadvantage, I did not even get good grades at law school (50% range, perhaps even slightly below average, since I got one C and a D in crim law, mostly B and B-, at U of T). I believe all those factors are making me pretty noncompetitive in the articling scene, so that even when the articling season starts and most firms will be looking to hire someone, my chance of getting a desirable position will be slim. On top of this, I want to get into an area that's quite competitive - I'm looking to do wills & estate admin and estate , perhaps taxation too - and the places that offer practice in those areas are mostly highly prestigious and selective corporate law firms that I feel I have basically no chance of getting in even knowing contacts.  

My only advantage is that through my years of work, I have a large potential client pool that I think I would be able to get a sole practice started without too much trouble. 

I am very tempted to find articling positions from what this forum frequently labels as "places where they would hire anyone with a JD and a pulse" just to get the PLTC requirement out of the way and get called to bar so I can start my own practice. But by doing this, I am afraid that I would be sacrificing the viability of my future career for the short-term sense of security. Frankly, I have zero experience practicing law in those, or any, areas. I can get a lot of theories down through reading and taking outside courses like the in depth income tax law I, II,  III, but I feel those won't help me in the practical area one bit. Alternatively, if getting called to the bar would increase my odds of getting a position where I could actually learn things useful to my practice, I would gladly hold off starting a sole practice and just work there for few years or maybe even a decade. I am by no means in a rush to start as a sole practitioner right away. I'm just terribly worried that the longer it takes me to get back into law, the harder it will become. 

I would love to hear from someone who has gone through those articling positions just to get over with it. Did you regret it? Did it impact your later career negatively? Were you still able to find better positions that actually offered what you sought after despite not having the best articling experience? 

BTW...how does one actually identify/find those places where they would hire anyone with a JD and a pulse? 😂 I have been cold-emailing most of the firms I searched and were interested in online as well as contacting all the firms recommended to me. Most didn't even replied, some answered but said they already had their articling positions filled/weren't looking, and I got interviewed twice but did not get the position. 

Thank you for reading this and I appreciate your input on this matter! 

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11 minutes ago, tuquoque said:

Why not just do the LPP?

Isn't this from Ontario only? If I were still in Ontario I would most likely have done this instead of trying to find articling. I wish the other provinces have this option too 😕 

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I speak as an articling student myself, but one with several years of experience outside the legal industry, who has been in a position of hiring in-house lawyers and retaining outside counsel. I also speak from the perspective of someone who, when I started looking for articling, expected firms to value my work experience (and I also had decent grades), but then discovered that was SO not the case. I got a distinct "used goods" reaction from firms that you are experiencing. The fact that I have a few grey hair as a prize for my experience worked against, not for, me.

With all that background, I would say you should take the first "JD and a pulse" position you can find. Your waiting longer is making your prospects weaker, not stronger. 

With that said, I have 2 caveats. First you mention that the fields you are interested in are only practiced by biggish law firms. I patently disagree. Go to Google Maps in your locality and search for wills lawyer, tax lawyer, etc. and see how many mom-n-pop shops show up. I think the experience you would get as some such firm may not look glossy on your resume but would put you in a rather good position for your solo practice. Second, if you have any hopes of having a "pedigree" articling experience, you should drop those hopes. I did at one point dream of articling at a nice downtown Vancouver law firm but it quickly became clear that pedigree articling positions are reserved for bright-eyed and bushy-tailed 25-year olds, or some exceptionally talented elders (and I am not one). Your background is not unlike mine. I was wise to take the first articling offer...it was far from my dream offer but it is not shitty either...and I think you should do the same.

 

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Where do you see this forum talking about hiring anyone with a jd and a pulse? Articling is so competitive that places that don’t pay anything get loads of applications...

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On 1/11/2020 at 1:46 PM, CliveMc said:

BTW...how does one actually identify/find those places where they would hire anyone with a JD and a pulse? 😂

Okay, there are a LOT of strange misconceptions in your post above, but let's focus on this one. I don't know where you heard about employers that will hire anyone at all, but you didn't hear it from anyone credible here. There are law SCHOOLS that will admit anyone with a cheque book and a pulse (pulse somewhat optional) but man, just engage your brain for a moment. In school, you pay them money. It isn't surprising you can always find someone to take your money. In a job, they pay you money (at least generally - some places try to find articling students for free) and I don't know where you got the impression there are employers who'll pay money to anyone at all just for showing up, but they don't exist.

As for the rest, you've summarized your issues reasonably, so I won't repeat them. You're right that you aren't a strong candidate and you'll need to do whatever you can do to get called and licensed to practice law. Note, it isn't the difference between doing something "quick and easy" and holding out for a great job. It's the difference between finding any gig to satisfy your licensing requirements - which will NOT be easy - and not getting called at all.

Now again, I don't want to dissect all your strange beliefs, but the idea that wills and estates is somehow the top of the marketplace and only happens in prestigious firms...umm, no. Maybe if all you did is google the topic and read the first few pages you'd get that impression. The good news is, small and sole practices do wills, estates, real estate, etc. And that seems to be what you want to do - in the sense that's what you want your practice to be in the future. That's actually good. You want to learn from someone who is working as a lawyer in a similar way to how you would work as a lawyer. Because...well, do I really need to explain the rest?

Yes, look for jobs with sole practitioners and small firms that do what you want to do. And for the love of God, try to get a better handle on the realities of the legal marketplace (employment-wise and generally) because when you do get an interview you don't want to sound strange and clueless. The way you work as a lawyer is by finding an employer who's willing to employ you as an articling student. Which is really a basic way of saying that you can't get a job until someone gives you a job. The one thing you aren't allowed to do until you get that far is set up your own practice, which in my opinion is a sound restriction on new graduates. So find someone willing to give you that chance, get called, and go from there. Worrying about anything else right now is a distraction.

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11 hours ago, Mal said:

Where do you see this forum talking about hiring anyone with a jd and a pulse? Articling is so competitive that places that don’t pay anything get loads of applications...

Seriously. The CBA even released a podcast yesterday to address the situation. 

 

https://theeverylawyer.simplecast.com/episodes/school-days

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12 hours ago, Mal said:

Where do you see this forum talking about hiring anyone with a jd and a pulse? Articling is so competitive that places that don’t pay anything get loads of applications...

Dude I don't know what you are talking about. Its not only in this forum, its very much there in the real world. My local Craigslist has at least one position from small-time lawyers at any time.

Edit: Make that three...I just looked up CL for Metro Van...its mid-January and it is SO not hiring season, and there are three articling positions up for grabs. Just to give you an idea of what kind of practices these are, two out of three don't even have a website. Believe me, these practices are not looking for the cream of the crop as far as law students go.

Edited by BeetleGirl

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I think there is some miscommunication in this thread. While there are a lot of sole practitioners/small firms hiring articling students for a mediocre wage or nothing at all, these positions still get many, many applications. I get numerous messages from Canadian law students and NCA/LPP candidates inquiring about articling positions and job opportunities. There is an oversaturation of candidates out there seeking articles/LPP placements, so even employers that do not pay anything can be relatively choosy when they get 100 applications for 1 or 2 positions. People are desperate to get their licensing requirements out of the way and employers know this. I've even had students from U of T and Osgoode reach out to me about articling/LPP placement prospects because that is how tough the job market has become. If you go on the Facebook Law Exchange Group, you will see at least 5 messages everyday from people with JDs and LLBs asking to work as legal assistants and law clerks, and asking for anybody to hire them on as an articling/LPP student. 

I know of at least two people from my year at Osgoode that articled for free. It is tough out there.

Edited by Deadpool
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I believe there is also a wide spectrum of interpretation of the term "JD with a pulse." My use of the term was in the context of the OP, who was a U of T student with "mostly B and B-" with one C and D. From  a small firm's perspective, I think OP is outside (on the better side) even a broad "JD with a pulse" interpretation.

Edited by BeetleGirl
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49 minutes ago, BeetleGirl said:

Dude I don't know what you are talking about. Its not only in this forum, its very much there in the real world. My local Craigslist has at least one position from small-time lawyers at any time.

Edit: Make that three...I just looked up CL for Metro Van...its mid-January and it is SO not hiring season, and there are three articling positions up for grabs. Just to give you an idea of what kind of practices these are, two out of three don't even have a website. Believe me, these practices are not looking for the cream of the crop as far as law students go.

How do you know that those positions don't receive many, many applicants? 

I glanced at the positions on Craigslist. The first one I clicked on (in Richmond) expressed a preference for a Canadian law graduate and also that only candidates being interviewed would be contacted. 

That doesn't really sound like they are desperate and would hire "anyone with a pulse", does it? 

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1 hour ago, BeetleGirl said:

Dude I don't know what you are talking about. Its not only in this forum, its very much there in the real world. My local Craigslist has at least one position from small-time lawyers at any time.

Edit: Make that three...I just looked up CL for Metro Van...its mid-January and it is SO not hiring season, and there are three articling positions up for grabs. Just to give you an idea of what kind of practices these are, two out of three don't even have a website. Believe me, these practices are not looking for the cream of the crop as far as law students go.

There is a difference between an elitist perspective saying that some job is offered to "anyone with a pulse" and the reality that there is a lot of competition for articling jobs to the point that even unpaid positions get flooded with applicants. There has been a very public "articling crisis" to the point that Ontario introduced an alternative way to get people through articling. 

It is unclear why you think the fact that there are a few advertised positions proves that articling is easy to get. There is not a wide spectrum of interpretation of the term "anyone with a JD and a pulse". Get out of the law school mentality that anything is arguable. 

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This thread is Lakehead Law's best advertisement since its inception.

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Hey guys, thank you for all of your input. I apologizing for any misconception I had. It has been a bit long since I left law school and the field so not all my understandings of things are accurate or up-to-date. However, this so called "JD with a pulse" is a term that I have come across multiple times while surfing this forum. The context can be varied but is usually articling students who are asking whether it is normally that they are barely getting any work handled to them, and/or are not learning much from their work, and some people would reply by saying that there are places that hire anyone with a JD and a pulse (this is literally an exact quote, not something I made up or paraphrased), or just used in a general context such as talking about employability, one instance where the OP asked about whether doing the Ontario LTP was a very idea, and someone replied by mentioning that doing those articling that hire anyone with a pulse is barely any better in practice despite being a real articling position. Now I have no idea whether the people who used those terms are credible source, or whether this accurate represents the reality or not. From what I'm hearing in this particular thread, it doesn't seem to be the case, but this did not seem so unrealistic back then, especially after seeing it a few times. So apologies for taking it at face value, I don't mean to offend anyone by implying that it is easy to find an articling position as long as you want it. 

I have actually been referred to quite a few sole practitioners and tiny firms by my contacts, but all of them were pretty straightforward in telling me they have zero interest in hiring an articling student, and their rationale seems quite understandable to me. Why would they want to develop a future competitor who will steal a piece of their pie? I guess I could try contacting some small to mid-size firms to try my chances but so far sole practitioners seem like a dead-end to me.  

I honestly had no idea that the articling scene is so competitive. Pretty much all of my friends back from law school were articling right after graduating and that must have given me the wrong impression. If nothing works out, I guess I will just do the ontario law training program (though I do not at all like the idea of leaving my mother here by herself). 

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On 1/7/2020 at 10:19 AM, Mountebank said:

Disclaimer: What I'm about to write applies, I think, generally to the majority of Ontario lawyers who deal with trusts regularly. There may be specialized lawyers who deal with certain subsets of trust law that may not see their experience in any way reflected below.

First, it depends on what you mean by Trust Law. Most lawyers who do a lot of trust work are estate, tax, or corporate lawyers (family lawyers also deal a lot with the law of trust; they just don't know it). The vast majority of the time, these lawyers are not acting as Trustees, but rather as solicitors assisting both with the planning and administration (which may include some litigation-adjacent work, such as passing the accounts of the trustee). Additionally, some lawyers who practice exclusively in this area (myself included) may offer to do some of the trustee's work for them (such as actually preparing the trust accounts). However, undertaking trustee work while also providing legal services to the trustee requires an appreciation for the potential issues that may arise in mixing these roles as well as an efficient setup to make it profitable (including staff capable of doing the lion's share of the work). As a result, many (perhaps most) lawyers who do a lot of estate administration work will not offer any trustee services at all.

Lawyers may also act as trustees, and while some lawyers make a good living from this, this can be a very difficult road for many reasons and is mostly avoided. It may also not be good advice to the client where a trust company could do the work for less (this applies less, I think, to lawyers who act only as ETDL, since most of this work can be done from the office and is less dependent on the size of the Estate. Often, this is just babysitting the money and making sure taxes are filed. Strictly speaking, the ETDL shouldn't be involved in the final distribution, although I'm quite sure this happens).

As far as actual legal work goes, the most common types of trusts you would encounter would be related to estate planning/estate administration, including those areas that intersect with family law and corporate law. This may involve assisting Trustees to administer regular testamentary trusts, disability, or other special-purpose trusts. As a Wills & Estates lawyer, you may also be involved with preparing and assisting in the administration of inter vivos trusts (including, but not limited to, disability trusts, spousal or joint partner trusts, cottage family trusts, corporate, and charitable trusts, etc.).

Because the law of trust is a highly sophisticated, somewhat ancient, area, you may find that firms want to see some kind of grounding in the substantive law (such as courses in law school). It is an area with a lot of pitfalls...like, a lot. And while there are not a ton of openings for lawyers who want to do only trust work, anecdotally it seems like there are precious few candidates as well (but this will be partially dependent on geography so YMMV).

Per @setto's post above, it's true that trusts aren't as commonly employed as income tax saving vehicles for estate planning purposes anymore. However, trusts are still commonly employed for other purposes completely unrelated to tax (such as where there is a need to control the money, govern the use of commonly held assets within a family or other group, or create an equitable interest without a transfer of legal title, especially where there is no intention for income to accumulate in the trust). And then, of course, there are new trusts under the ITA that were created to maintain their use and avoid punitive tax treatment (such as the Qualified Disability Trust, although this will always be testamentary).

I completely agree regarding Waters, and would recommend Oosterhoff as well, the latter being, I think, more up to date.

tl;dr If you get into this area, you'll probably end up administering few trusts but drafting many Wills.

 

On 1/16/2020 at 8:31 PM, Mal said:

Where do you see this forum talking about hiring anyone with a jd and a pulse? Articling is so competitive that places that don’t pay anything get loads of applications...

 

On 1/16/2020 at 8:47 PM, Diplock said:

Okay, there are a LOT of strange misconceptions in your post above, but let's focus on this one. I don't know where you heard about employers that will hire anyone at all, but you didn't hear it from anyone credible here. There are law SCHOOLS that will admit anyone with a cheque book and a pulse (pulse somewhat optional) but man, just engage your brain for a moment. In school, you pay them money. It isn't surprising you can always find someone to take your money. In a job, they pay you money (at least generally - some places try to find articling students for free) and I don't know where you got the impression there are employers who'll pay money to anyone at all just for showing up, but they don't exist.

As for the rest, you've summarized your issues reasonably, so I won't repeat them. You're right that you aren't a strong candidate and you'll need to do whatever you can do to get called and licensed to practice law. Note, it isn't the difference between doing something "quick and easy" and holding out for a great job. It's the difference between finding any gig to satisfy your licensing requirements - which will NOT be easy - and not getting called at all.

Now again, I don't want to dissect all your strange beliefs, but the idea that wills and estates is somehow the top of the marketplace and only happens in prestigious firms...umm, no. Maybe if all you did is google the topic and read the first few pages you'd get that impression. The good news is, small and sole practices do wills, estates, real estate, etc. And that seems to be what you want to do - in the sense that's what you want your practice to be in the future. That's actually good. You want to learn from someone who is working as a lawyer in a similar way to how you would work as a lawyer. Because...well, do I really need to explain the rest?

Yes, look for jobs with sole practitioners and small firms that do what you want to do. And for the love of God, try to get a better handle on the realities of the legal marketplace (employment-wise and generally) because when you do get an interview you don't want to sound strange and clueless. The way you work as a lawyer is by finding an employer who's willing to employ you as an articling student. Which is really a basic way of saying that you can't get a job until someone gives you a job. The one thing you aren't allowed to do until you get that far is set up your own practice, which in my opinion is a sound restriction on new graduates. So find someone willing to give you that chance, get called, and go from there. Worrying about anything else right now is a distraction.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 8:24 AM, setto said:

Seriously. The CBA even released a podcast yesterday to address the situation. 

 

https://theeverylawyer.simplecast.com/episodes/school-days

 

On 1/17/2020 at 9:38 AM, Deadpool said:

I think there is some miscommunication in this thread. While there are a lot of sole practitioners/small firms hiring articling students for a mediocre wage or nothing at all, these positions still get many, many applications. I get numerous messages from Canadian law students and NCA/LPP candidates inquiring about articling positions and job opportunities. There is an oversaturation of candidates out there seeking articles/LPP placements, so even employers that do not pay anything can be relatively choosy when they get 100 applications for 1 or 2 positions. People are desperate to get their licensing requirements out of the way and employers know this. I've even had students from U of T and Osgoode reach out to me about articling/LPP placement prospects because that is how tough the job market has become. If you go on the Facebook Law Exchange Group, you will see at least 5 messages everyday from people with JDs and LLBs asking to work as legal assistants and law clerks, and asking for anybody to hire them on as an articling/LPP student. 

I know of at least two people from my year at Osgoode that articled for free. It is tough out there.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 10:02 AM, QuincyWagstaff said:

How do you know that those positions don't receive many, many applicants? 

I glanced at the positions on Craigslist. The first one I clicked on (in Richmond) expressed a preference for a Canadian law graduate and also that only candidates being interviewed would be contacted. 

That doesn't really sound like they are desperate and would hire "anyone with a pulse", does it? 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 10:38 AM, Mal said:

There is a difference between an elitist perspective saying that some job is offered to "anyone with a pulse" and the reality that there is a lot of competition for articling jobs to the point that even unpaid positions get flooded with applicants. There has been a very public "articling crisis" to the point that Ontario introduced an alternative way to get people through articling. 

It is unclear why you think the fact that there are a few advertised positions proves that articling is easy to get. There is not a wide spectrum of interpretation of the term "anyone with a JD and a pulse". Get out of the law school mentality that anything is arguable. 

 

Edited by CliveMc

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12 hours ago, CliveMc said:

Hey guys, thank you for all of your input. I apologizing for any misconception I had. It has been a bit long since I left law school and the field so not all my understandings of things are accurate or up-to-date. However, this so called "JD with a pulse" is a term that I have come across multiple times while surfing this forum. The context can be varied but is usually articling students who are asking whether it is normally that they are barely getting any work handled to them, and/or are not learning much from their work, and some people would reply by saying that there are places that hire anyone with a JD and a pulse (this is literally an exact quote, not something I made up or paraphrased), or just used in a general context such as talking about employability, one instance where the OP asked about whether doing the Ontario LTP was a very idea, and someone replied by mentioning that doing those articling that hire anyone with a pulse is barely any better in practice despite being a real articling position. Now I have no idea whether the people who used those terms are credible source, or whether this accurate represents the reality or not. From what I'm hearing in this particular thread, it doesn't seem to be the case, but this did not seem so unrealistic back then, especially after seeing it a few times. So apologies for taking it at face value, I don't mean to offend anyone by implying that it is easy to find an articling position as long as you want it. 

I have actually been referred to quite a few sole practitioners and tiny firms by my contacts, but all of them were pretty straightforward in telling me they have zero interest in hiring an articling student, and their rationale seems quite understandable to me. Why would they want to develop a future competitor who will steal a piece of their pie? I guess I could try contacting some small to mid-size firms to try my chances but so far sole practitioners seem like a dead-end to me.  

I honestly had no idea that the articling scene is so competitive. Pretty much all of my friends back from law school were articling right after graduating and that must have given me the wrong impression. If nothing works out, I guess I will just do the ontario law training program (though I do not at all like the idea of leaving my mother here by herself). 

I don't know if it's helpful to dig any further into where you came across the term, but I've used "JD and a pulse" before to describe what employers don't want. That is, no one is hiring an articling student just to be minimally qualified and sit behind a desk. That's the difference between law and, say, cooking at a not-fancy restaurant. If you want someone to flip burgers, then anyone who'll reliably show up to flip burgers and not cause any other issues is basically your ideal employee. You don't need someone especially enthusiastic about the job beyond that. Law is...well, just different.

Now you're already following the most important advice I give from that point on. Don't look for just any job. Don't apply to anyone at all who is hiring an articling student. And that's simply because for jobs that are otherwise unrelated to your background and interests, you simply aren't a competitive applicant at all. Narrow your search to appropriate jobs related rationally to your interests. And you've done that already, so, good.

As for why some places simply aren't interested in a student - I think you'd be amazed how much it doesn't relate to fear of competition. It really comes down to whether someone is in the market for help or they aren't. A practice - particularly a smaller practice - has whatever amount of work coming in that it has. You can't just hire someone and turn the tap on a little stronger. It doesn't work that way. If I don't have work to keep someone else occupied, hiring a student will be a waste of time and money for me, and mostly boring for them. That said, knowing this is good information. Because when someone says "not in the market" you shouldn't hear "what are you crazy, I'd never hire a student" you should hear "it doesn't make sense for me right now." That could, theoretically, change. Sometimes people just get busier all of a sudden. Someone gets sick, big file comes in, etc. Tell them you're very interested and if anything does change to please keep you in mind. That could pay off if you're lucky.

Mainly, keep doing what you're doing and make sure everyone you know is aware of what you're looking for. Sometimes contacts come in strange and unexpected ways. But also, learn more about the profession generally. You can do some of that just on this site, and you're doing it already. That way, you'll avoid seeming strange and clueless when you talk with lawyers.

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23 hours ago, Diplock said:

I don't know if it's helpful to dig any further into where you came across the term, but I've used "JD and a pulse" before to describe what employers don't want. That is, no one is hiring an articling student just to be minimally qualified and sit behind a desk. That's the difference between law and, say, cooking at a not-fancy restaurant. If you want someone to flip burgers, then anyone who'll reliably show up to flip burgers and not cause any other issues is basically your ideal employee. You don't need someone especially enthusiastic about the job beyond that. Law is...well, just different.

Now you're already following the most important advice I give from that point on. Don't look for just any job. Don't apply to anyone at all who is hiring an articling student. And that's simply because for jobs that are otherwise unrelated to your background and interests, you simply aren't a competitive applicant at all. Narrow your search to appropriate jobs related rationally to your interests. And you've done that already, so, good.

As for why some places simply aren't interested in a student - I think you'd be amazed how much it doesn't relate to fear of competition. It really comes down to whether someone is in the market for help or they aren't. A practice - particularly a smaller practice - has whatever amount of work coming in that it has. You can't just hire someone and turn the tap on a little stronger. It doesn't work that way. If I don't have work to keep someone else occupied, hiring a student will be a waste of time and money for me, and mostly boring for them. That said, knowing this is good information. Because when someone says "not in the market" you shouldn't hear "what are you crazy, I'd never hire a student" you should hear "it doesn't make sense for me right now." That could, theoretically, change. Sometimes people just get busier all of a sudden. Someone gets sick, big file comes in, etc. Tell them you're very interested and if anything does change to please keep you in mind. That could pay off if you're lucky.

Mainly, keep doing what you're doing and make sure everyone you know is aware of what you're looking for. Sometimes contacts come in strange and unexpected ways. But also, learn more about the profession generally. You can do some of that just on this site, and you're doing it already. That way, you'll avoid seeming strange and clueless when you talk with lawyers.

Very solid advice and tips! Thanks a bunch!

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