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How many 3Ls actually attend class?

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28 minutes ago, Malicious Prosecutor said:

Some make a point of telling prospective articling students that they have a 100% hireback rate after articling.

What they don't say is how many of those 1st year associates make it to their second year.

I can speak from personal experience that this is indeed "a thing".

Though once you have a year of articling and a year of work as an associate under your belt, I can't imagine your third year law school grades would be a relevant factor in deciding whether to keep you. They have two years of real world information, why would they rely on grades?

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3 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

Though once you have a year of articling and a year of work as an associate under your belt, I can't imagine your third year law school grades would be a relevant factor in deciding whether to keep you. They have two years of real world information, why would they rely on grades?

They didn't.  I suppose the question is more whether those 3L grades would be a factor in getting a new job.  As best as I can recall, once I was let go by the big national firm I was not asked for transcripts ever again.

I have this anecdote about 3L grades.  In law school I thought I wanted to be a securities lawyer.  When it came time for my last set of exams I had two exams, a couple days break, then Securities Law and then Real Estate almost back to back.  I decided to really gun for Securities Law, try to get the highest mark.  I really cut back on the amount of time I spent studying Real Estate.

Result: I did indeed get an A in Securities, and the prize for the highest mark (turned out to be worth $75).  I also got a C in Real Estate.

And neither mark has made the slightest difference to my career ever since.

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16 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

Though once you have a year of articling and a year of work as an associate under your belt, I can't imagine your third year law school grades would be a relevant factor in deciding whether to keep you. They have two years of real world information, why would they rely on grades?

To keep you, no. But, I think the reference to grades applies to seeking other work with a different firm if you are let go.

Edited by JohnStuartHobbes

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7 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

Though once you have a year of articling and a year of work as an associate under your belt, I can't imagine your third year law school grades would be a relevant factor in deciding whether to keep you. They have two years of real world information, why would they rely on grades?

Erin was making the point that when you're let go 6 months after articling, at a firm with "100 percent hireback", then your 3L grades will be relevant for your next job.

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7 minutes ago, Malicious Prosecutor said:

Result: I did indeed get an A in Securities, and the prize for the highest mark (turned out to be worth $75).  I also got a C in Real Estate.

And neither mark has made the slightest difference to my career ever since.

Hey, at least you're $75 wealthier!

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20 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Erin was making the point that when you're let go 6 months after articling, at a firm with "100 percent hireback", then your 3L grades will be relevant for your next job.

I suppose. But you still have two years of actual work experience, which would tend to make greats a lot less important. I suppose you could dream up scenarios where it is the make-or-break factor.

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1 minute ago, Jaggers said:

I suppose. But you still have two years of actual work experience, which would tend to make greats a lot less important. I suppose you could dream up scenarios where it is the make-or-break factor.

Again, Erin said it's something that's considered 5 years post call. They didn't mention to what extent, and since I'm not a lawyer I really can't say either way.

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Like I said, there may be some scenarios in which it might matter. No workplace I've been in would care about your grades once you have actual legal work experience.

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1 hour ago, Malicious Prosecutor said:

Some make a point of telling prospective articling students that they have a 100% hireback rate after articling.

What they don't say is how many of those 1st year associates make it to their second year.

I can speak from personal experience that this is indeed "a thing".

Now that I'm thinking about it I remember someone telling me that firms boast about a 100% hireback rate after articling but will fire 1st year associates a couple months into their first year

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10 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

https://precedentjd.com/hireback-watch/bay-street-hireback-ranking/

I am far less impressed by these hireback numbers after some of the comments here regarding first and second year associate "culling". As if doing OCIs was not hard enough as is...

I wonder why they decided to include the DOJ, but not MAG (or even any MAG offices).

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5 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

I wonder why they decided to include the DOJ, but not MAG (or even any MAG offices).

I don't think they track the MAG but they should. I always get updates about new Associate hires at the various law firms but nothing on government, public interest, etc. I think these people should also be recognized in this magazine and it would help future students to see the hireback numbers in government offices. 

Edited by Deadpool

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I went to most of my classes in 3L but if I wasn't feeling it, definitely skipped more than a few morning classes, specially for paper courses without a participation component. I took Sports Law in third year. It was entertaining when I did go, but let's not pretend that all courses someone takes in third year are remotely relevant or as robust as a black letter class like a Securities Law or Secured Transactions or whatever.

I also skipped a lot of an international arbitration course but that's because I didn't want to arbitrate, thought it would be way more interesting than it was (since I had taken a course on investor-state disputes) and the professors, while nice, were incredibly boring. No regrets.

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Most professors just go over the readings listed in the syllabus during class. For most classes if you're able to understand the readings yourself there probably isn't that much of a benefit to actually attending class.

The main benefit I get from attending class is exam hints.I almost never learn anything in class that I haven't already learned from the readings.

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1 hour ago, Toad said:

Most professors just go over the readings listed in the syllabus during class. For most classes if you're able to understand the readings yourself there probably isn't that much of a benefit to actually attending class.

The main benefit I get from attending class is exam hints.I almost never learn anything in class that I haven't already learned from the readings.

Exactly. I learn better from readings than having a professor tell me about a reading. 

I still go to about 50-60% of my classes. But I'm not always sure why, except it's something to do and reminds me what day it is, that I'm still in school, and I do have classes. 

I really don't feel like I learn anything in class, or that it will help me get better grades...except by knowing what policy perspectives will make the professor happy, whether or not I agree with them. 

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I think law students tend to underestimate how much "having a professor tell me about a reading" actually is law professors telling you the answers to the exam. But by third year, you are going to be a pretty efficient law student, so do what works for you. If you think your professor is an idiot, going to class isn't going to improve how you do on the exam.

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8 hours ago, Jaggers said:

Like I said, there may be some scenarios in which it might matter. No workplace I've been in would care about your grades once you have actual legal work experience.

Out of curiosity, how do you differentiate between "good" and "less good" or "bad" legal work when comparing job applications? Presumably, they worked on different files. If it's a litigation job, those candidates have experience interviewing clients, doing discoveries, drafting demand letters, pleading, etc etc. How would you differentiate between their work and pick between them for an interview, without resorting to grades, or how well known their place of work is for.. doing good work?

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9 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Out of curiosity, how do you differentiate between "good" and "less good" or "bad" legal work when comparing job applications? Presumably, they worked on different files. If it's a litigation job, those candidates have experience interviewing clients, doing discoveries, drafting demand letters, pleading, etc etc. How would you differentiate between their work and pick between them for an interview, without resorting to grades, or how well known their place of work is for.. doing good work?

Normally you would describe the work you have been doing on your resume with a few bullet points.  That's also the point of a cover letter. And once you've chosen people for an interview, you can check references.

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Another thing to consider is that when 3Ls talk about how little we work, we are comparing it to 1L and 2L, and frequently to summer jobs in law firms. 

Compared to that, it seems like I'm doing nothing. But of course I'm not. Almost everyone I know still takes it seriously. 

And part of the talk about how little we are doing now is just a mirror image of talk about how much we were doing in 1L. Just reassuring ourselves we are doing enough. 

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