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Toronto Raises 2020 (and 2021)

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

I hear this a lot but it doesn't seem reflected by the numbers at Toronto firms. From seeing the numbers of articling students at firms compared to the number of partner promotions each year, it seems to be about 1:2. Conservatively, 1:3. Maybe 5-10% of the articling students at a particular firm will end up being partners at THAT firm, but partners somewhere? Seems much more likely.

I very well could be off base on this, just an outsider's anecdotal observation.

I've had this discussion with people a lot but not all attrition is created equal. @Jaggers is browsing. He left Bay. Doesn't sound like he was forced out or even miserable at his job, but that he got a good opportunity. That's been the case for most of the people that I articled with and am aware of leaving. Most of them go in-house to gigs with better work/life balance and different demands.

EDIT: Besides Uriel, we also have another Bay Street partner (at a Sister no less) that regularly posts and browses the forum. He can chime in if he wants to about the difficulties of making partner but I'm not going to speak for him (though he's browsing right now).

Edited by Rashabon

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29 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Lol. Insane amount of power? You're losing the plot now. Each big law partner is a small to medium business enterprise on their own. Go ask the soles on this forum if they think they have an insane amount of power relative to the risk/size of the business they take on. Then account for the fraction of the size of the business these soles have.

There are soles and small shops on this forum that regularly defend the idea of having people article for free, and it's the Big Law partners that have insane power? That's law. That's dentistry. That's what being a professional that isn't employed by the government does.

Rashabon - I think you and I have different worldviews. That's fine. I harbour no ill will towards you. I do not work on Bay Street any longer, and I concede that the Street may have changed considerably in the last few months. But if you think corporate law partners don't wield a considerable (I used 'insane' for rhetorical effect) amount of power relative to their associates and the staff, it is not me who has lost the plot. 

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4 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

I've had this discussion with people a lot but not all attrition is created equal. @Jaggers is browsing. He left Bay. Doesn't sound like he was forced out or even miserable at his job, but that he got a good opportunity. That's been the case for most of the people that I articled with and am aware of leaving. Most of them go in-house to gigs with better work/life balance and different demands.

EDIT: Besides Uriel, we also have another Bay Street partner (at a Sister no less) that regularly posts and browses the forum. He can chime in if he wants to about the difficulties of making partner but I'm not going to speak for him (though he's browsing right now).

No there are plenty of people who love their jobs on Bay Street, you are quite right. I would argue that these perspectives are disproportionately represented on this forum. Uriel, for example, carries an outsized amount of influence on very impressionable Canadian law students as a result of the way he uses this platform. Whether or not this is a good thing, I would argue, is up for debate. 

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1 minute ago, AlecBerg said:

No there are plenty of people who love their jobs on Bay Street, you are quite right. I would argue that these perspectives are disproportionately represented on this forum. Uriel, for example, carries an outsized amount of influence on very impressionable Canadian law students as a result of the way he uses this platform. Whether or not this is a good thing, I would argue, is up for debate. 

You're advocating for less information for students and young lawyers, often times those who don't have connections in this industry?

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8 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

I've had this discussion with people a lot but not all attrition is created equal. @Jaggers is browsing. He left Bay. Doesn't sound like he was forced out or even miserable at his job, but that he got a good opportunity. That's been the case for most of the people that I articled with and am aware of leaving. Most of them go in-house to gigs with better work/life balance and different demands.

EDIT: Besides Uriel, we also have another Bay Street partner (at a Sister no less) that regularly posts and browses the forum. He can chime in if he wants to about the difficulties of making partner but I'm not going to speak for him (though he's browsing right now).

Like there are few things I want to hear less on this forum than a Bay Street partner "(at a Sister no less)" expound on the challenges they overcame to become a multi millionaire. 

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Just now, AlecBerg said:

 

Rashabon - I think you and I have different worldviews. That's fine. I harbour no ill will towards you. I do not work on Bay Street any longer, and I concede that the Street may have changed considerably in the last few months. But if you think corporate law partners don't wield a considerable (I used 'insane' for rhetorical effect) amount of power relative to their associates and the staff, it is not me who has lost the plot. 

Well you've now redacted the operative word: insane. Don't pretend that insane and considerable mean the same thing - they don't. This goes back to one of my earlier posts - you're hyperbolic in a fashion that means you can't be taken seriously on these issues. You're arguing a rhetorical point and trying to convince people yet using language that makes you unserious.

No one would deny that they have considerable power relative to their associates and staff - that is the entire point. See my post above. Partners like mini businesses of millions in revenue, no shit they have considerable power. Like I said, go tell one of the soles on this forum that they wield too much power. They will call you insane. I made most of the points in the post you quoted.

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Just now, Rashabon said:

Well you've now redacted the operative word: insane. Don't pretend that insane and considerable mean the same thing - they don't. This goes back to one of my earlier posts - you're hyperbolic in a fashion that means you can't be taken seriously on these issues. You're arguing a rhetorical point and trying to convince people yet using language that makes you unserious.

No one would deny that they have considerable power relative to their associates and staff - that is the entire point. See my post above. Partners like mini businesses of millions in revenue, no shit they have considerable power. Like I said, go tell one of the soles on this forum that they wield too much power. They will call you insane. I made most of the points in the post you quoted.

I actually think you're missing the message here Rashabon. I do not care if I convince you. The people I want to convince about how rancid life on Bay Street can be are the people reading the posts, not the people commenting. They are the eponymous law students. And they're talking to me, which is welcome. 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, AlecBerg said:

Like there are few things I want to hear less on this forum than a Bay Street partner "(at a Sister no less)" expound on the challenges they overcame to become a multi millionaire. 

You're being a douchebag and intentionally misreading posts. Income partners certainly aren't multi-millionaires, but I wasn't talking about "challenges they overcame". I meant my words literally "the difficulties of becoming a partner".

You think language is meaningless and that's cool, but it's not, this is a forum for lawyers, so pick your words like you mean them instead of shifting the meaning every post. This is exactly the same as you saying that "insane amount of power" and "considerable amount of power" mean the same thing. They don't except to someone disingenuous.

Edited by Rashabon
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Just now, AlecBerg said:

I actually think you're missing the message here Rashabon. I do not care if I convince you. The people I want to convince about how rancid life on Bay Street can be are the people reading the posts, not the people commenting. They are the eponymous law students. And they're talking to me, which is welcome. 

Can you elaborate on your point? You've been all over the place, and since you want to convince law students of the horrors of bay street, it would be nice if you could condense it and argue it in one.

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Just now, AlecBerg said:

I actually think you're missing the message here Rashabon. I do not care if I convince you. The people I want to convince about how rancid life on Bay Street can be are the people reading the posts, not the people commenting. They are the eponymous law students. And they're talking to me, which is welcome. 

That's cool man, you've got a martyr/savior complex and an ego and that's pretty evident and feel free to run with it and preach to the impressionable students as you want to. I'm going to give them my perspective as someone who has stuck through it and continues to stick through it. Those same students can reach out to me as they see fit, especially once they see that you don't deal in reality.

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Just now, Rashabon said:

You're being a douchebag and intentionally misreading posts. Income partners certainly aren't multi-millionaires, but I wasn't talking about "challenges they overcame". I meant my words literally "the difficulties of becoming a partner".

You think language is meaningless and that's cool, but it's not, this is a forum for lawyers, so pick your words like you mean them instead of shifting the meaning every post. This is exactly the same as you saying that "insane amount of power" and "considerable amount of power" mean the same thing. They don't expect to someone disingenuous.

Insane amount of power it is then. Challenges and difficulties strike me as awfully similar words, tbh. Your mileage may vary. I apologize for my inexactitude. 

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Just now, pzabbythesecond said:

Can you elaborate on your point? You've been all over the place, and since you want to convince law students of the horrors of bay street, it would be nice if you could condense it and argue it in one.

Yeah I mean there are other threads I've started on this, and I don't think you're particularly interested in hearing my gripes with working life on Bay Street. 

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Just now, AlecBerg said:

Yeah I mean there are other threads I've started on this, and I don't think you're particularly interested in hearing my gripes with working life on Bay Street. 

Haha. So the fact that you knowing nothing about me but still having the nerve to make that bold of a claim just confirms you have an agenda and a closed mind.

Good for others to be aware of that when reading your posts.

 

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Not a saviour complex. I just want a different perspective adequately accounted for on this site, because to be frank I don't think it's really out there. There are so many Bay Street associates who are deeply, deeply, fucking miserable in their work lives. And the students should appreciate that and hear that perspective, such that they can make an informed decision about the world they're stepping into.

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1 minute ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Haha. So the fact that you knowing nothing about me but still having the nerve to make that bold of a claim just confirms you have an agenda and a closed mind.

Good for others to be aware of that when reading your posts.

 

I mean - you've commented (negatively) elsewhere in other threads and called me "all over the place" - you can see why I have doubts that you're coming in good faith. I didn't call you a Leafs fan or anything, wasn't that nerve-y. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, AlecBerg said:

Insane amount of power it is then. Challenges and difficulties strike me as awfully similar words, tbh. Your mileage may vary. I apologize for my inexactitude. 

Okay, so no they don't wield an insane amount of power. You know who wields an insane amount of power? Your middle manager type at every office job on the planet. They don't even do anything. There are endless complaints devoted to those folks on every single blog, website, app whatever that deal with white collar or similar work. The construction foreman building a crew wields an insane amount of power. The partner that is, by themselves, a $1 to $3 to $20 million dollar business hardly wields insane power over their associates relative to the middle manager type.

Your reading comprehension is falling apart by the post. It wasn't a point about inexactitude. Let me quote the two posts side by side. The current and former LSAT takers should be able to recognize the gulf of meaning between the two:

In response to attrition and partnership conversion rates:

"He can chime in if he wants to about the difficulties of making partner but I'm not going to speak for him (though he's browsing right now)."

Your twist on what I said:

 

"Like there are few things I want to hear less on this forum than a Bay Street partner "(at a Sister no less)" expound on the challenges they overcame to become a multi millionaire. "

 

I think anyone reading this can see how absurd your response is and how it is entirely divorced from the context in which I was speaking.

 

Edited by Rashabon

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I’d be very interested in hearing about the difficulties of making partner. That seems super useful and informative to a prospective applicant. In fact, I can think of few things more useful.

In any event, it seems that firms are going to try a one-off (yes technically two because the payment is divided) bonus event rather than raises this year. I suspect that might tide a few people over until next year who don’t really want to leave but might if it does end up being more of the same.

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1 minute ago, easttowest said:

I’d be very interested in hearing about the difficulties of making partner. That seems super useful and informative to a prospective applicant. In fact, I can think of few things more useful.

In any event, it seems that firms are going to try a one-off (yes technically two because the payment is divided) bonus event rather than raises this year. I suspect that might tide a few people over until next year who don’t really want to leave but might if it does end up being more of the same.

I would wager the thing most useful to a prospective applicant would be to hear from a second or third-year associate about their experience working at the firm, given that the partners are relative rarities. The thinking here is you can tell how an organization treats its people not by how it treats its most successful, but instead just the everyday associates. 

That is an interesting point about the bonuses being one-off, and certainly more responsive to the discussion topic. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, AlecBerg said:

I just want a different perspective adequately accounted for on this site, because to be frank I don't think it's really out there. There are so many Bay Street associates who are deeply, deeply, fucking miserable in their work lives. And the students should appreciate that and hear that perspective, such that they can make an informed decision about the world they're stepping into.

I fully agree with this. It would be very valuable for more people to talk openly and publicly to students and applicants about how deeply unsatisfied and unhappy they felt about working on Bay. Especially to counter the investment those firms put into recruitment and PR, and the complicity of law schools in selling their brands.

But you are absolutely not the person to do this. You're making Bay look good by coming across as someone to be dismissed out of hand for being hyperbolic and having a massive axe to grind.

Edited by CleanHands
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Just now, CleanHands said:

I fully agree with this. It would be very valuable for more people to talk openly and publicly to students and applicants about how deeply unsatisfying and unhappy they felt about working on Bay. Especially to counter the investment those firms put into recruitment and PR, and the complicity of law schools in selling their brands.

But you are absolutely not the person to do this. You're making Bay look good by coming across as someone to be dismissed out of hand for being hyperbolic and having a massive axe to grind.

Perhaps! I don't really care and will drop off for a while after this to let the conversation iron itself out and let other voices bubble to the top. The unfortunate truth is that the only person who's going to spend any time on this very silly website really extensively detailing what sucks about working on Bay Street is someone who does have a massive axe to grind. I imagine this forum will go right back to Bay-neutrality or positivity soon enough. 

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