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jx98

Ryerson vs. Osgoode

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Let's keep things on topic, please. The usual suspects seem to derail any post with a question about Ryerson, when, in truth, none of us know what Ryerson law will be like. It may prove those of you who like to shit on any aspect of it, wrong. Who knows. Keep it helpful or posts will be deleted.

To the OP:  it's a little late to be deciding which schools to apply to, no? Is one extra school $400? It's been too long since I applied to remember the ON costs. Without knowing what other schools you're applying to, it's difficult to answer your question.  Your gpa numbers are very good but your LSAT is below what is typically recommended for a rewrite. 

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It will be interesting to see how the banks treat PSLOC applicants going to Ryerson. I recall that even established and reputable schools like Queens and Western were only on RBC's B list.

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9 minutes ago, harveyspecter993 said:

It will be interesting to see how the banks treat PSLOC applicants going to Ryerson. I recall that even established and reputable schools like Queens and Western were only on RBC's B list.

RBC is typically trash for law students generally though. I'm sure Scotia or TD will be fine with it.

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Thank you to everyone who gave insightful advice. There were a lot of unnecessarily negative comments when I was only seeking helpful advice considering this is my first time applying, so I appreciate the people who commented on this in a non-obnoxious manner. I think I’m going to stick with Osgoode now, considering that the prospects with Ryerson are too unpredictable. I understand that my LSAT is a bit low so I’m considering potentially rewriting in January, however I believe my GPA, LORs, ECs, and work experience will be able to lift me up.  I’ve also entered my stats on the OLSAS admissions predictor which indicates that I have a “Very Good” chance of admission to Osgoode. Of course this isn’t 100% reliable but I’m hoping it’s valid to some extent. I am also applying to Windsor and Ottawa. 

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Another reminder to members who have been around here a long time and should know better, only one account is allowed!

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If you're only applying to one or the other, and aren't in a hurry to be admitted this cycle then I'd advise you to go with Osgoode.

Based on some of the admission stats for the first cohorts for new schools like Lakehead and TRU, your stats should almost certainly get you admitted into Ryerson if you were interested.
Osgoode will be tougher, but maybe more worth it, and you do have a stellar GPA.

As an aside, I do think that we as a profession, like to think that certain schools have some sort of built-in advantage/disadvantage when it comes to predicting the success of lawyers generally. Beyond the Ultra Vires Bay Street hiring numbers which say precious little about articling hirebacks and who's still there after 5 years, I honestly haven't seen anything that paints a remotely complete picture of whether that's true or not. 

My office has two lawyers (that I know of) who graduated from Lakehead. We have senior lawyers and partners who are Windsor grads. And I'm a Windsor alum myself. Of course we also have plenty from Queens, Western, Ottawa, McGill, UofT, Osgoode, even Manitoba, UBC, etc ... basically, we have people from all over the place.

I certainly think it's true that certain schools have reputations for producing top-tier lawyers and for being difficult to get into, but the worst the data says about other "easier" schools is that their reputations are silent on the matter. In my practice, I've seen great and absolutely terrible lawyers from just about every school. At this point I'm honestly not sure what your school says about you beyond what your ballpark admission stats...

But in this profession, maybe that's enough...

 

TLDR; Go with Osgoode because you'll eat less flack for it,  not because graduating from Ryerson will be some sort of raging dumpster fire. In all likelihood, it won't be, and Ryerson alum will be just fine. They'll be called to the bar like everyone else, and be hired by a bunch of great and shitty employers like everyone else. 

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This thread is interesting - here we thought that in, 5 or 6 years time,  we might be seeing Western/Queens v. Ryerson threads (e.g., location). Yet, here we are in the first year, and we already have an Osgoode v. Ryerson thread. Just comes to show you - Ryerson really is here to stay I guess

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On 10/28/2019 at 12:12 AM, jx98 said:

Sorry but I’m a bit confused as to why location can’t be a decent reason. Is that not why many people on this site express a distaste towards schools like UWindsor, simply for not being close enough to Toronto? I thought it was ridiculous until I started reading what people say on this forum...

The general consensus is that you should learn the law of the province that you want to practice in. Both Ryerson and Osgoode are located in Ontario/Toronto. If there are networking events you want to attend, they will generally be in the evenings and you will receive prior notice of them, so you can schedule your commute to these events accordingly. There is a subway line at York that will take you downtown. In all honesty though, you will spend most of your time in law school in law school, at least in your first year.  

Osgoode has a well established reputation and alumni network as a result of being the oldest law school in Ontario. It has many connections and community partners. Windsor does not have as strong of a reputation overall because people generally perceive there to be "better" (subjective) schools in the form of U of T, Osgoode, Western, and Queen's in Ontario. These four schools in Ontario also attract a stronger incoming class (purely based on academics alone) overall. 

Here are some of the opportunities that Osgoode offers that you may be interested in (largest selection of clinicals, student clubs, and courses out of any law school in Canada):

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/jd-program/clinics-intensives/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/internship-programs/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/courses-and-seminars/

http://pbsc.osgoode.yorku.ca/

http://www.legalandlit.ca/clubs/

While I have no doubt that Ryerson's law school will thrive and flourish, it is a complete ambiguity right now. The school has not opened yet and is accepting its first cohort for September 2020. In comparison, Osgoode has had the last 130 or so years to become established - judges, prime ministers, supreme court justices, etc. have come out of Osgoode. The faculty it attracts is also top-tier with respect to their academic credentials and achievements (many come from ivy league schools, Oxford, etc.).  

While rankings of Canadian law schools are largely irrelevant, they do exist in some form. Not every school is created equal and it would be misleading to tell you that it is. While our schools here are not ranked in the same manner as it is in the States (where there are the T-14 and four tiers of law schools), as a result of there being fewer law schools here, there are still some schools that are better than others, overall.

I hope this helps. Feel free to shoot me a message if you have any questions. I apologize for my earlier tone. I am an Osgoode alumni and proud of the school, so admittedly found your initial question to be a little insulting, but if you really want to learn more about the school and all that it offers, feel free to ask!

This website is a great resource and I hope no one has scared you away from the great people and advice you can get here. I wish you the best of luck in the process. 

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On 10/27/2019 at 7:10 PM, jx98 said:

I'm in the midst of deciding which Toronto school I would prefer to apply to considering I already have two other schools I've decided to apply to and would rather not spend $400 on applications.

Reasons for Ryerson:

1. The location is better and the tuition is cheaper than Osgoode's

2. Opportunity to do a professional work placement

Reasons for Osgoode:

1. More established reputation

2. Admissions process is easier to predict than Ryerson's

 

As for my stats, my cGPA is 3.79, L2 is 3.83, LSAT 156.

I got into Osgoode with same LSAT and slightly lower CGPA, you have a shot 

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Based purely on my subjective observations of the recruitment process in 2L  (OCIs and Articling), I wouldn't apply to Ryerson just yet. I would prefer to wait it out a few years and see what happens to Ryerson grads in terms of placements, and also look at what kind of "clout" the faculty gets.

I've come to realize that while it doesn't really matter where you go to school (for the most part, law school is what you make of it), not all law students stand on equal footing for future opportunities, school reputation/brand being a major factor in that. For instance, it seems instinctive for many to think that someone who goes to U of T or Dal or UNB is better than the other simply by virtue of the school. Sure, the fact that some schools are more exclusive and generally admit more "qualified candidates" (on paper), and generally have more of their admitted students actually enroll, but that is not to say that a law student at one school is better than another. That's my perspective on "individual" law students. However, as a cohort, for the same reasons, I think we assume that one school will, as a whole, have a more "outstanding" cohort than others. Might not be fair, but that's what I've noticed.

Also, law firms love to show that they hire quality candidates. One way they do this is by having extensive "bios" on their "people" websites showing what each lawyer has done, and where they have gone to school. The fact that you can often filter through a firm's lawyers based on what school they attended (there is actually a "school" drop-down menu!) goes to show the relative weight associated with school name and reputation. I've also heard a rumour that some firms (particularly the large ones) prefer to only hire from certain schools.

SO I suppose what I am trying to say is Ryerson may be a good school, maybe just as good as Osgoode. But we don't know that, and neither does anyone else - and necessarily, at this stage that will be a caveat in the mind of every recruiter a Ryerson Law student speaks to. The rest is up to you.

On the flip side, it could be an extremely enriching experience to be a part of the first few cohorts at a new faculty...They will likely get good professors and try to establish links and clinics like the other schools, so there might be more of an opportunity for students to get involved, at least on a deeper institutional level, than in established faculties.

Finally, I would recommend re-writing the LSAT if you want to be a serious candidate at Osgoode (basing my opinion purely on the numbers provided, absent any intangibles not listed). Because there are so many applicants (probable 2000-3000 a year), at some level, admissions start as a "numbers" game - they likely have a "cut-off" for initial screening purposes, and move down as applicants accepted offers at other schools or withdraw their applications. Your GPA is definitely in the target range, but to make yourself a more competitive applicant, again purely on a numbers basis, I would aim for a 160-165 (or higher, of course). 

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On 10/27/2019 at 10:06 PM, Tagger said:

How long until the first UofT vs Ryerson thread? 

UofT advantage: Get a job

Ryerson advantage: Coding bootcamp

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Man I always wanted to learn Python, which I heard might be helpful for actual legal work.

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