Jump to content
wtamow

General 2L Recruit Question Thread

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Disputes said:

I like Newfoundland tbh ... he never reacts to any of the extremely disparaging comments people make about him on this site 

I think that's a good sign that Nfl is a troll. There is no way a person actually this anxious would be able to tune out all the disparaging comments.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d ask that we stop talking about Newfoundland and focus on the topic of the thread. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everyone! Looking ahead to Call Day, my favourite firms happen to be the most competitive ones (fewer spots, only select overachievers), but some of my second-tier firms seem really enthusiastic about me. How do I strategically schedule my in-firms / dinners so that I maximize my chances at my favourite firms without completely alienating the second-tier firms where I have a better chance of actually getting a job? Thanks in advance!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/13/2019 at 10:42 PM, wtamow said:

What advice do you have for candidate C?

My overall advice for Candidate C is that you will never know if you're Candidate C.  My friend thought she was Candidate C and was bummed all year that despite the fact that she was witty and gorgeous and popular she must be the worst interview candidate ever --- until she met a recruiter that was stunned that she wasn't taken anywhere.  She was right below the line for us, and apparently right below the line for lots of other firms too, one of which agreed to take her on for articles.

Now, if you really are Candidate C and interviewing really is a struggle for you, your path forward is likely to be practice-specific. I'd have very different advice for Candidate C that secretly has a passion for criminal law versus tax or civil litigation.  Three completely different pieces of advice.

10 hours ago, Newfoundland said:

Should I get a 100% silk tie for in-firms? I am currently using a non-silk tie. My friend said he can spot the difference instantly 

Wear something that looks good.  If you're wearing a wool tie that goes well with kind of a winter-weight suit, then you're fine.  If what your friend is trying to say is that your tie looks cheap, then I (a) wouldn't worry about it too much because most firms understand that you're a student and your resources are limited; and (b) would go ahead and replace it if it's just as easy for you to do so.  Again, doesn't have to be silk (although it's hard to find a good one that's not), and even silk isn't necessarily expensive.

That all being said, I'm sure there are firms and interviewers out there that do take a more patrician view of the candidacy process and actually might shake their heads at a cheap tie.  Then just query whether you would really want to work at a firm for rich people only.

1 hour ago, BNAAct1867 said:

Hi everyone! Looking ahead to Call Day, my favourite firms happen to be the most competitive ones (fewer spots, only select overachievers), but some of my second-tier firms seem really enthusiastic about me. How do I strategically schedule my in-firms / dinners so that I maximize my chances at my favourite firms without completely alienating the second-tier firms where I have a better chance of actually getting a job? Thanks in advance!

You can't, that's why they're treated as signals.

That being said, I'll repeat my oft-repeated advice to really give those "second-tier" firms a careful look, too.  Assuming your goal is partnership, you have to remember that this is a marathon and not a sprint.  If you think you can get an offer at Morgans, but it's going to involve faking that you know how to play polo and hiring a fashion consultant and basically never acting like yourself, that's not going to be sustainable.  Congratulations!  You were an associate at Morgans for ten minutes and now you're looking through the ORs for literally anything else that will cover your minimum student loan payment.  All of a sudden that (ugh) also pretty highly ranked national firm is looking pretty good.

My current firm was my #7 pick at OCIs, #3 going into in-firms, and if I was being honest with myself, it was pretty clearly my #1 by the end of Monday.  I really liked it there.  A "better" firm (according to some rigged magazine rankings) was pursuing me at the in-firm stage and I made the tough choice to go to the place where I felt more comfortable.  Best decision I ever made.  Now all my friends that went to that firm are working in-house somewhere after bailing as junior associates, and I'm still happily rolling into work every day. 

Just keep your preferences flexible.  Try to see past the law-school concept of "prestige" as if it was a tangible thing, and keep your long-term success in mind.  If your "favourite" firms are really competitive and you're spending all your time and effort trying to get them to bite, and there's an "enthusiastic" "second-tier" firm full of people you actually like, my humble advice is that you probably have your priorities crossed.  Unpopular opinion, maybe, but this seventh-year associate salary is kinda nice and you should try it.

8 hours ago, FingersCr0ssed said:

An individual with zero self sufficiency who asks 500 questions while largely ignoring most of the responses will fit in well in the legal profession?

[stares directly into camera]

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Uriel is this really the thread to be talking about Morgans? The climate around here would turn their airship into the Hindenburg. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't seen any threads or PMs about Morgans this year, which I assume means no one got a call so it's safe to discuss.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many in-firms can you reasonably accept, and how should you schedule them? What are people's thoughts on doing 5 on Monday and 1 on Tuesday? 

Edited by aflorrick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, aflorrick said:

How many in-firms can you reasonably accept, and how should you schedule them? What are people's thoughts on doing 5 on Monday and 1 on Tuesday? 

Did 5 on Monday. Doable but scheduling was very chaotic on call day. You may have to call back a few firms to make the day work. I don’t think it hurts your chances but it was very exhausting. Keep in mind there is the reception and dinner afterwards on Monday as well. 

In hindsight, I would probably opt for 4 on the first day and leave the rest on Tuesday.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, aflorrick said:

How many in-firms can you reasonably accept, and how should you schedule them? What are people's thoughts on doing 5 on Monday and 1 on Tuesday? 

That many is certainly possible, but is stretching it. The firm you scheduled on Tuesday will recognize that they are not at the top of your list, and they will have already started to formulate ideas about preferred candidates from their Monday interviews (again - not to say you can't get hired to a firm you had a first interview with on Tuesday, but it adds pressure to the process). You'll also run into a pain of scheduling second interviews with your firms. Even though they are only one hour, you're starting off with 2 hours of Tuesday blocked off where you can't have a second interview with a Monday firm, plus if you really want to keep something open with a firm you couldn't attend dinner with on Monday (or Tuesday), you might even be blocking off the lunch hour. All that being said, it's certainly possible to start the process on Tuesday with certain firms and come out the other end - neither you nor the firm are likely to have formulated a final decision for every spot by that point.

I do note that people often seem to cancel first interviews scheduled for Tuesdays after going through 5 firms and deciding that seeing a sixth, for the first time, is not going to add too much.

Keep in mind that you will be exhausted doing 5 in firms on Monday regardless, because the only conceivable way to fit them in is 8-10, 10-12, 12-2, 2-4, 2-6, straight to dinner. That means you need to leave your last interview at each firm a couple minutes early (the firms get it and understand - don't worry about that part, just let them know in a polite fashion), but then you need to run to your next interview. Your lunch is a power bar at best.

Edited by Rashabon
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Keep in mind that you will be exhausted doing 5 in firms on Monday regardless, because the only conceivable way to fit them in is 8-10, 10-12, 12-2, 2-4, 2-6, straight to dinner. That means you need to leave your last interview at each firm a couple minutes early (the firms get it and understand - don't worry about that part, just let them know in a polite fashion), but then you need to run to your next interview. Your lunch is a power bar at best.

leave time to poop

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/14/2019 at 12:44 PM, Rashabon said:

I mean realistically, start prepping for the non-OCI recruit if you didn't get in-firms. Isn't that the majority of students in law school anyway?

My question is kind of along the lines of: what prep needs to be done? My cover letter and resume are great enough to get many OCIs, and “getting an interview” is not something I’ve had a problem with. It’s the part that comes after... and it’s difficult to get any meaningful feedback... I’ve done mock interviews with the school and with an associate at a large firm and received no tangible feedback that has helped me improve so I don’t really know what more “prep” there is that I can do. Whenever I reach out to past recruiters it’s always the same answer (too many applicants) which I believe is the truth.

I have decent hygiene and a tailored suit, I have friends in and out of law school. I’m a little bit weird but I never thought I was repulsive or rude or anything. But with how silent my phones are after every interview period and how empty my inbox is after every interview period I feel like I’m exhausting all my options. I’ve even gone on to do second interviews in the past only to be rejected at that stage as well. 

Everyone I speak with seems to just give me the same set of canned answers. I feel like when I ask for feedback or help there is zero honesty. 

It’s one thing to get rejected if your grades are low and you’re obviously disinterested but when everyone rejects you based on “fit” it starts to feel personal. If everyone around me is getting positive responses and I’m not hearing anything, I must be doing something wrong and I’d like to find out what it is.

 

For the record, I am already lining up non-OCI interviews but I am feeling quite dreadful because I’m sure most people don’t strike out as bad as I have. I don’t see myself getting very far in the non-OCI recruit or articling recruit unless I figure out what exactly I need to fix. 

Edited by wtamow
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wtamow said:

My question is kind of along the lines of: what prep needs to be done? My cover letter and resume are great enough to get many OCIs, and “getting an interview” is not something I’ve had a problem with. It’s the part that comes after... and it’s difficult to get any meaningful feedback... I’ve done mock interviews with the school and with an associate at a large firm and received no tangible feedback that has helped me improve so I don’t really know what more “prep” there is that I can do. Whenever I reach out to past recruiters it’s always the same answer (too many applicants) which I believe is the truth.

I have decent hygiene and a tailored suit, I have friends in and out of law school. I’m a little bit weird but I never thought I was repulsive or rude or anything. But with how silent my phones are after every interview period and how empty my inbox is after every interview period I feel like I’m exhausting all my options. I’ve even gone on to do second interviews in the past only to be rejected at that stage as well. 

Everyone I speak with seems to just give me the same set of canned answers. I feel like when I ask for feedback or help there is zero honesty. 

It’s one thing to get rejected if your grades are low and you’re obviously disinterested but when everyone rejects you based on “fit” it starts to feel personal. If everyone around me is getting positive responses and I’m not hearing anything, I must be doing something wrong and I’d like to find out what it is.

 

For the record, I am already lining up non-OCI interviews but I am feeling quite dreadful because I’m sure most people don’t strike out as bad as I have. I don’t see myself getting very far in the non-OCI recruit or articling recruit unless I figure out what exactly I need to fix. 

If you're basing all of this solely on the OCI process, take a deep breath. That represents less than 20% of the legal marketplace. At Osgoode, almost everyone I know did OCIs and less than 25% of my class were hired. And no, it was not due to a lack of trying. 70% of my class are not socially inept, rude, negative people with poor grades. Many strong candidates in my year with good grades (some even great - in the high B+/A range), good experiences, and good personalities (in my opinion, and I like to think I am a good judge of character), did not land a job through the formal recruitment process. Some of these students even failed to land an articling position in 3L and took whatever they could get. Some of them landed their dream job near graduation and afterwards. Some students articled elsewhere and just lateralled into Biglaw after their call to the bar. While those doors are largely closed for most people, it is still a possibility. I have a close friend that failed to land something through the 1L, 2L, and 3L recruitment processes. He was super bummed as hell. He landed an in-house corporate articling job near the end of 3L and now works at an international firm. 

Look, I get that U of T is Biglaw or Bust for most of you guys right now, but this will change within the next few years. Many students are hired on Bay that should not be there and do not want to be there, and I strongly believe this is a major factor in the high Associate attrition rates. Even at U of T, roughly 50% of the class lands a job through the OCI process, not all of them are at Biglaw firms, and some (or many) will be hired through connections and nepotism (seems to be a taboo to discuss here, but it is nevertheless true). 

Relax man. You're in your first semester of 2L. You only need one job, one opportunity to prove yourself. Your goal is to become a lawyer. You can do it. The places that have turned you down do not deserve to have a hustler like you there. Bring your A game to whomever gives you an opportunity and kill it. You will leave this shitty process far behind, stop comparing yourself to people who don't matter or who may seem like they got it all together when they don't, and you will reach a place of satisfaction and peace. 

There are many more opportunities to practice the various areas of law that Biglaw preaches still to come. Make the best of this process and see what happens with it, but I can assure you that there are still firms and in-house employers hiring articling students well into 3L and beyond. It is a competitive process because there are roughly 400-450 students hired through the OCI process every year, and over 2000 law students in the country. And, yes, many students from even outside of Ontario are still applying to work in Toronto.

Frankly, I don't think you need to change anything. Stop thinking that. Stop thinking that you need to prove yourself even more than you already have. Stop thinking that you need to become someone you are not in order to land a job. Dude, be weird. Are you going to fake your personality and character once you've faked it to land a job? You need to be yourself in order to truly excel as a lawyer regardless of where you end up. 

I never once asked for feedback after an interview in my life, nor did I go to a single mock interview in law school. I know myself and know what I bring to the table. If someone doesn't want to hire me or give me an opportunity, that is their loss. I landed a pretty sweet position and like to think I am where I should be. Just believe in yourself and hustle. Don't be down - you got this!

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Uriel said:

leave time to poop

Adult diapers exist for a reason.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Adult diapers exist for a reason.

Lol I’m hardly an expert in big law hiring, but if a candidate smells like they have a full diaper, I’m not sure they’re the right fit for my office. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, realpseudonym said:

Lol I’m hardly an expert in big law hiring, but if a candidate smells like they have a full diaper, I’m not sure they’re the right fit for my office. 

Careful now, before you inadvertently get hit with a hefty discrimination (against disabilities) suit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Careful now, before you inadvertently get hit with a hefty discrimination (against disabilities) suit.

Having to smell a full diaper would probably count as undue hardship.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Careful now, before you inadvertently get hit with a hefty discrimination (against disabilities) suit.

Anyone who dares soil the great name of Pseudonym and Hat LLP with their shitty HRTO diaper claim will find themselves in deep shit. I mean, shit will hit the fan. They'll be up shit creek without a paddle. Or a job. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that they won't see jack shit from me. Because, I mean, I know that shit happens, but I was just shooting the shit over here. 

Also, English. A breathtakingly beautiful language. 

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, wtamow said:

My question is kind of along the lines of: what prep needs to be done? My cover letter and resume are great enough to get many OCIs, and “getting an interview” is not something I’ve had a problem with. It’s the part that comes after... and it’s difficult to get any meaningful feedback... I’ve done mock interviews with the school and with an associate at a large firm and received no tangible feedback that has helped me improve so I don’t really know what more “prep” there is that I can do. Whenever I reach out to past recruiters it’s always the same answer (too many applicants) which I believe is the truth.

I have decent hygiene and a tailored suit, I have friends in and out of law school. I’m a little bit weird but I never thought I was repulsive or rude or anything. But with how silent my phones are after every interview period and how empty my inbox is after every interview period I feel like I’m exhausting all my options. I’ve even gone on to do second interviews in the past only to be rejected at that stage as well. 

Everyone I speak with seems to just give me the same set of canned answers. I feel like when I ask for feedback or help there is zero honesty. 

It’s one thing to get rejected if your grades are low and you’re obviously disinterested but when everyone rejects you based on “fit” it starts to feel personal. If everyone around me is getting positive responses and I’m not hearing anything, I must be doing something wrong and I’d like to find out what it is.

 

For the record, I am already lining up non-OCI interviews but I am feeling quite dreadful because I’m sure most people don’t strike out as bad as I have. I don’t see myself getting very far in the non-OCI recruit or articling recruit unless I figure out what exactly I need to fix. 

Beyond the advice Deadpool already gave above, I just want to mention that sometime shit happens - and for genuinely no reason at all. Not saying that it's what's happening to you but it happens. Sometimes it's just a numbers game. Keep going and you'll eventually hit the one interview that you need. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



  • Recent Posts

    • Why would any knowledge of civil law be useful in a common law jurisdiction? To answer you initial question, the fact that U de M has an agreement with Oz doesn't mean that other common law students can't apply for the fast track 1 year civil as well. There's more paper work to go through, and it's not a guarantee that they'll accept you but it is doable. 
    • I am not feeling as ready for my November LSAT as I would like but am going to take it and see how I do. In the meantime I would like to have the Jan LSAT as a fall back.  As I would need to register for the Jan LSAT before I will get my Nov score - do you think it would look bad if I called schools to tell them I was taking the Jan LSAT now? Also if Nov goes better then expected would it look bad to then again call them and tell them I am no longer taking Jan (in order to get my application looked at sooner)? Thanks for any tips or advice
    • @BNAAct1867Is the fast tracked civil law program at U de M open to any common law students? I know Osgoode has the combined JD/BCL program with U de M. I am interested in living in MTL for one year and I have been actively learning french, also I noticed some people mentioned the civil law knowledge can be useful even if one works in common law provinces. 
    • i'm confused do they use olsas converted cgpa or b3?
    • I was in your same situation. I emailed a lot of prof's I did highly well in and I chose two from the list of emails. we'll see how it turns out this year but try choosing profs you know would write a great letter without knowing you (some people are good hearted) . 
×
×
  • Create New...