Jump to content
Newfoundland

H Needed for OCI for UofT Law

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

Okay but the average UofT student is probably more competitive than the average OsGoode student from the admissions point of view. It doesn't matter that they have more student. The fact of the matter is is that a firm is just as willing to hire 15 Osgoode student than 15 UofT students for their summer class. UofT makes it sounds like the brandname carries the most weight on Bay STreet than other school but it cleary does not as just as many Osgoode students are hired than UofT students meaning that the Osgoode name brand is just as strong or name brand doesn;t really matter

This is illogical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jwms said:

This is illogical.

First of , the class sizes are very similar. Second of, say that Firm Y hired 10 UofT and 10 Osgoode students, that is showing that the UofT name plate doesnt really matter much and within the firm 50% are UofT students and 50% are OSgoode so UofT is not really dominating Bay Street either as other students seem to think. Moreover, UofT is not really prestigious anyways in the grand scheme of things world wide. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ProfReader said:

Admissions or hiring?  I think that you mean hiring.  You are wrong.  Those numbers don't necessarily mean that firms are just as willing to hire Osgoode students.  Let's say that a firm has 100 Osgoode applications and 50 UofT applications and hires 5 students from each school.  Are you trying to tell me that those two things are equal?  Even if you were correct, all of this is not the point anyway.  You may do better at Osgoode you may not, making this hypothetical boost in grades a ridiculous reason to transfer.  Also, I doubt Osgoode would let you transfer at this point anyway.

I don't mean transfer. I mean starting afresh and defitnley not transfering at this point. As I said earlier, I would leave the profession in its entirety, especially after a prof said I wouldnt be good in being a lawyer after not doing well in the class. 

 

Okay, I see your point but Osgoode and UofT have like the same class sizes and even if they dont this means that the 6th student from UofT is not getting a job but the 5th person from Osgoode is. Also, at least for OCIs arnt you only competiting against each other from your own school? Also, just FYI Fasken hired like 1 UofT student and Osgoode sent more students this summer. Also, Osgoode did better than UofT for 1L Summer. I think UofT didn't send a single student to Davies 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

First of , the class sizes are very similar. 

Factually wrong.

2 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

Second of, say that Firm Y hired 10 UofT and 10 Osgoode students, that is showing that the UofT name plate doesnt really matter much and within the firm 50% are UofT students and 50% are OSgoode so UofT is not really dominating Bay Street either as other students seem to think.

Also wrong (but related to your first incorrect statement). Profreader above explained why your absolute #s of hires are meaningless. And I don't know any students who think UofT 'dominates' Bay Street; any student who does believe this is clearly misinformed.

2 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

Moreover, UofT is not really prestigious anyways in the grand scheme of things world wide. 

I don't know what this point has to do with anything. Who claimed that UofT was 'worldwide prestigious'? And what does that mean? What does global prestige matter, anyway? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

I don't mean transfer. I mean starting afresh and defitnley not transfering at this point. As I said earlier, I would leave the profession in its entirety, especially after a prof said I wouldnt be good in being a lawyer after not doing well in the class. 

 

Okay, I see your point but Osgoode and UofT have like the same class sizes and even if they dont this means that the 6th student from UofT is not getting a job but the 5th person from Osgoode is. Also, at least for OCIs arnt you only competiting against each other from your own school? Also, just FYI Fasken hired like 1 UofT student and Osgoode sent more students this summer. Also, Osgoode did better than UofT for 1L Summer. I think UofT didn't send a single student to Davies 

Starting afresh at another school on the assumption that you would get better grades and thus have better job prospects would be truly stupid.  Leaving the profession entirely isn't something that people can answer for you.  As for your "as I said earlier", this conversation would be much easier to follow if you hadn't spread it across multiple threads.

They don't have the same class sizes.  Around 210 versus around 290 last time I heard.  How many of those students applied for jobs is also relevant. 

Huh?  No, for OCIs you aren't only competing against others from your school.  That doesn't make sense. 

Your examples of single law firms in single years mean nothing at all.  I'm sure that in other years those numbers were completely different.  It is way too small a sample size to draw any conclusions from.

To echo the previous poster, no one cares about worldwide prestige.

Edited by ProfReader
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

I don't mean transfer. I mean starting afresh and defitnley not transfering at this point. As I said earlier, I would leave the profession in its entirety, especially after a prof said I wouldnt be good in being a lawyer after not doing well in the class. 

 

Okay, I see your point but Osgoode and UofT have like the same class sizes and even if they dont this means that the 6th student from UofT is not getting a job but the 5th person from Osgoode is. Also, at least for OCIs arnt you only competiting against each other from your own school? Also, just FYI Fasken hired like 1 UofT student and Osgoode sent more students this summer. Also, Osgoode did better than UofT for 1L Summer. I think UofT didn't send a single student to Davies 

The vast majority of your statements in this thread are factually wrong. Are you trolling here? If not, it's pretty embarrassing that you got an H even with this display of logic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jwms said:

Factually wrong.

Also wrong (but related to your first incorrect statement). Profreader above explained why your absolute #s of hires are meaningless. And I don't know any students who think UofT 'dominates' Bay Street; any student who does believe this is clearly misinformed.

I don't know what this point has to do with anything. Who claimed that UofT was 'worldwide prestigious'? And what does that mean? What does global prestige matter, anyway? 

1) Okay fine, but UofT only sent 98 and Osgoode sent 99 of its class to Bay via 2L Recruit.  UofT cant even send 1/2 of its students  and yet claims to be a leading law school. From what I heard, 40% of UofT OCI participants do not get a job out of the process. 40% is a lot of students. 

 

2) UofT claimed to be a leading institution and some upper-years at UofT seem to think that. (Obviously if you have a job and benefited from it than yeah you would think that). 

 

3)Doesn't UofT have the rep of like being a Bay Street feeder? And literally everyone in the hallways talks about NY or Bay sTreet firms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ProfReader said:

Starting afresh at another school on the assumption that you would get better grades and thus have better job prospects would be truly stupid.  Leaving the profession entirely isn't something that people can answer for you.  As for your "as I said earlier", this conversation would be much easier to follow if you hadn't spread it across multiple threads.

They don't have the same class sizes.  Around 210 versus around 290 last time I heard.  How many of those students applied for jobs is also relevant. 

Huh?  No, for OCIs you aren't only competing against others from your school.  That doesn't make sense. 

Your examples of single law firms in single years mean nothing at all.  I'm sure that other years those numbers were completely different.  It is way too small a sample size to draw any conclusions from.

To echo the previous poster, no one cares about worldwide prestige.

Fasken hired 15 summer students. 1 from UofT 6 from Osgoode, Osgoode is not 6 times larger than UofT if we are arguing about proportions. Osgoode had the edge at Fasken this recruit . What happened at Fasken that led to such a swing in the result. 

 

Okay, well I care about prestige. 

 

No OCIs are competing against your own school. Each firm at most will interview X students at UofT's OCI so obviously you are competing only with UofT students for that OCI interview slot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Newfoundland said:

1) Okay fine, but UofT only sent 98 and Osgoode sent 99 of its class to Bay via 2L Recruit.  UofT cant even send 1/2 of its students  and yet claims to be a leading law school.

2) UofT claimed to be a leading institution and some upper-years at UofT seem to think that. (Obviously if you have a job and benefited from it than yeah you would think that). 

Huh?  None of this makes sense.  You can't claim that "UofT can't [sic] even send 1/2 of its students" without knowing how many people applied.  Also, since when is Bay Street hiring the only mark of a leading law school?  I'm also not sure why you are getting upset about this now.  All of this information was freely available before you attended law school.  Caveat emptor.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

Fasken hired 15 summer students. 1 from UofT 6 from Osgoode, Osgoode is not 6 times larger than UofT if we are arguing about proportions. Osgoode had the edge at Fasken this recruit . What happened at Fasken that led to such a swing in the result. 

Okay, well I care about prestige. 

No OCIs are competing against your own school. Each firm at most will interview X students at UofT's OCI so obviously you are competing only with UofT students for that OCI interview slot. 

Again, you are talking about one firm in one year with a very small sample size, which means nothing.  Who knows what happened at Fasken?  Possibly just a fluke that they liked candidates from other schools.  Possibly their top UofT choices accepted offers at other firms.  We will never know.  But it is completely ridiculous for you to consider starting afresh or quitting on the basis of these types of statistics.

If you are so caught up on prestige, that's on you.  Others don't care.  And why would you possibly care about global prestige?  That has nothing to do with your employment prospects.

Do we know for a fact that firms don't interview more students from some schools than others?  If not, then you aren't really competing with people from your school in the way that you suggest.  Also, even if you are competing with students from your school for interview slots, you are definitely not competing with just them for job offers.

Edited by ProfReader
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

edited.

Edited by jwms
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ProfReader said:

Again, you are talking about one firm in one year, which means nothing.  Who knows what happened at Fasken?  Possibly just a fluke that they liked candidates from other schools.  Possibly their top UofT choices went elsewhere.  We will never know.  But it is completely ridiculous for you to consider starting afresh or quitting on the basis of these types of statistics.

If you are so caught up on prestige, that's on you.  Others don't.  And why would you possibly care about global prestige?  That has nothing to do with your employment prospects.

Do we know for a fact that firms don't interview more students from some schools than others?  If not, then you aren't really competing with people from your school in the way that you suggest.  Also, even if you are competing with students from your school for interview slots, you are definitely not competing with just them for job offers.

Okay I see the point about relative ratios. 

But do we know if UofT gives a boost for Bay Street? And what is the grade cut offs like for UofT to get an OCI slot for interview. I really dislike the new UofT grading system of H, HH, P  -- > it fosters a lot of stress and competition that you have peers outright saying 'if i give you my notes you might take away my future job' (someone literally said that to me) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

12 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

1) Okay fine, but UofT only sent 98 and Osgoode sent 99 of its class to Bay via 2L Recruit.  UofT cant even send 1/2 of its students  and yet claims to be a leading law school. From what I heard, 40% of UofT OCI participants do not get a job out of the process. 40% is a lot of students. 

Did you do ANY research before starting law school? Did you think UofT was a golden ticket into Bay Street? Nobody has ever claimed that it is. Not even Harvard/Yale/Stanford send 100% of their students to biglaw. UofT has the highest OCI placement in the country - is that not good enough?

Additionally, there are plenty of jobs outside of OCIs. 

Jeez, man. You have a really immature outlook on this whole thing. I hope you're trolling honestly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Newfoundland said:

Okay I see the point about relative ratios. 

But do we know if UofT gives a boost for Bay Street? And what is the grade cut offs like for UofT to get an OCI slot for interview. I really dislike the new UofT grading system of H, HH, P  -- > it fosters a lot of stress and competition that you have peers outright saying 'if i give you my notes you might take away my future job' (someone literally said that to me) 

Of course we don't know.  But we do know that if you went to another school, you may not get better grades at all.  And even if you did, Bay Street firms may or may not go deeper into the UofT class, rendering your better grades irrelevant.  Even if they don't prefer UofT, I think that we can be pretty confident that they don't prefer other schools, despite your insistence on repeatedly citing the irrelevant Faskens example.  Again, it would be foolish to sacrifice an entire year of law school (and the associated tuition) on the basis of these hypotheticals. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

Okay I see the point about relative ratios. 

But do we know if UofT gives a boost for Bay Street? And what is the grade cut offs like for UofT to get an OCI slot for interview. I really dislike the new UofT grading system of H, HH, P  -- > it fosters a lot of stress and competition that you have peers outright saying 'if i give you my notes you might take away my future job' (someone literally said that to me) 

This makes zero sense. The 'new' grading system (which is not at all new) does not really foster any more stress or competition than any other grading scheme. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jwms said:

This makes zero sense. The 'new' grading system (which is not at all new) does not really foster any more stress or competition than any other grading scheme. 

The system fosters people to game the system that I now regret since all Ps and Hs are the same. They will focus all their energy on 1 class and get a HH and take a P in other course whereas if you try in a course you may still end up as a P; afterall a p is 46%- to 100%.   That's why I didn't get a single HH and I think if i had done that I would be in a better position. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Newfoundland said:

Okay I see the point about relative ratios. 

But do we know if UofT gives a boost for Bay Street? And what is the grade cut offs like for UofT to get an OCI slot for interview. I really dislike the new UofT grading system of H, HH, P  -- > it fosters a lot of stress and competition that you have peers outright saying 'if i give you my notes you might take away my future job' (someone literally said that to me) 

For your own sanity, you should learn to block out the noise around you and in your head. All law students risk living in a tiny bubble, where each moment seems like the defining point of your future career. They're not. Trying to change schools based upon not being at the top of your class and getting your first pick of jobs would be a massive overreaction to what is essentially a commonplace, if disappointing experience. 

As others are pointing out, striking out during 1L and 2L OCIs is not the end of the world. It just means that you'll need to find a job the way that most law students do.

Edited by realpseudonym
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Newfoundland said:

The system fosters people to game the system that I now regret since all Ps and Hs are the same. They will focus all their energy on 1 class and get a HH and take a P in other course whereas if you try in a course you may still end up as a P; afterall a p is 46%- to 100%.   That's why I didn't get a single HH and I think if i had done that I would be in a better position. 

No one does this. You're trolling or have a very bizarre view of law school and what your peers are doing. In any event, I don't think this thread is particularly helpful to you (since you're not reading/digesting what anyone's telling you), and it's certainly harmful to any prospective law student reading this misinformation, so I'm out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jwms said:

No one does this. You're trolling or have a very bizarre view of law school and what your peers are doing. In any event, I don't think this thread is particularly helpful to you (since you're not reading/digesting what anyone's telling you), and it's certainly harmful to any prospective law student reading this misinformation, so I'm out.

My friend does it. He even told me to try it when he saw me studying for Property and told me to give Property a P to focus elsewhere. I am taking it in what you are all saying and I accepted that I was msitaken on the ratio; I thought Osgoode and UofT were roughly the same size. 

I disagree, I wish I had read that  most people do not get a job from 2L recruit before entering law school. I read what was on UofT website the emplyoment rate of 90%+ and thought that meant OCIs were pretty "easy" to get a job to get into that 90% stat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't want to be that guy, but literally we have a professor, upper year law students, and lawyers on here trying to make a 1L student feel better; the OP's tactic is simply to dismiss everything being said here and engage in circular reasoning. This is a classic case of someone who needs to live and learn. Let them apply broadly and see what happens. Can't turn back the clock now. 

Edit: Newfoundland, this may come as a shock to you, but there are people going to law school for more than the chance to land a student position at a large corporate/commercial firm. A number of medalists and clerks I know went into litigation boutiques and practice areas like criminal, aboriginal, and immigration. Sounds like you may have gone to law school for the wrong reasons. Only you can answer that. 

Edited by Deadpool
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



  • Recent Posts

    • Thanks for taking the time to answer my previous question. I may be applying this cycle and have a question with regards to the Sketch part of the application. When I previously applied to Law School I added every little volunteer/extracurricular from the time I entered University. For simplicity purposes, I wanted to retain only the last 3-4 years of relevant experience. Would this be a problem for an individual that had more sketch items in a previous application 1-2 years ago? For example some activities are not included at all whereas they were on a previous application?  And just for the sake of knowing I guess, would you have access to and look back at a previous application if you were assessing a candidate?  
    • No, I think the bias is good because it makes whiny conservatives like you fill your diaper. Your first thought on hearing the Prime Minister did something racist was run to bump an old thread to try and score points for your “team”, because to you the racism isn’t really the issue, it’s just an opportunity to poke a lib in the eye.
    • I don't think that people are necessarily laughing at the essence of what you are saying.  What you are saying isn't completely crazy.  The pace at which you are suggesting this will all happen is likely, in part, what they are doubting.  The reactions may also be partly attributed to the fact that you haven't (I don't think?) actually practiced law at this point. I just don't think the legal profession will be completely revolutionized as imminently as your comments suggest.  While I (and probably others) can appreciate arguments that computers will replace certain functions currently done by humans and that some of Ryerson's tech-forward training could be helpful (if well executed), I think it will take time to get there.  While I do appreciate the need for lawyers to have more technical skills and to better integrate technology into law schools (whatever that means...I'm old), I don't understand how this translates to what seems to be your critique of the substance of law school (i.e. what is taught not the way it is taught).  I do think that law school, especially 1L, should continue to include the case reading, making legal arguments, etc. that you seem to criticize, both because I can't imagine a scenario where humans interacting with AI technology don't need a baseline level of knowledge of the law and because I don't think these changes are going to come all that quickly.  It is also pretty absurd to claim that summaries from 2003 are "the same".  75% the same?  Sure.  But actually the same?  Doubtful.  Even if they were "the same", that doesn't demonstrate that law school curricula are dated or make them irrelevant.  If that is the current state of the law, then that is the current state of the law.
    • Agreed. Also I’m at UBC (where OP also seems to attend) and I’ve had several recruiters at big firms tell me, unprompted, that we have a great CSO that understands exactly what the firms want. Probably since our CSO people have worked at large firms.  Just wanted to add that since I don’t think it’s helpful for OP to go down the path of thinking an incompetent CSO was his or her issue. 
    • Okay since I am getting laughs here. Fine, here's a fairly "primitive" model of how natural language processing algorithm can be used. Read this, its an open-source Python library designed for building legal tech software: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3192101 This is an easier to digest thing describing how AI is reshaping law.  https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3381798
×
×
  • Create New...