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Jasminess

Can't decide between UK LLB or US JD or any hopes for Canadian JD?!

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Hi everyone , I decided to join this forum so that I can share what my journey is and you guys might be able to help me with . I've done tons and toooons of research so I know that the job market in US is not that great unless you attend T-14 schools and securing good positions  , Canadian schools are super competitive and hard to get into and UK LLB yes is its easier thats why a lot of people go there lol 

So a little bit about me , I did Psychology Hons at York University , graduated with B gpa ( 3.0 /4 ) , took LSAT once scored 155 , but I'm retaking it again . I know that my GPA is  not good for Canadian schools except Windsor (little chance ) so I decided to apply for US JD programs at Tier 3 schools +  apply for UK schools , I'm planning to eventually move to US and practice there in the next 6 7 years ( I want to move out of Toronto for many reasons )  but if I attend US schools costs more and my permanent residency status is not clear unless a law firm hires me and sponsors me for visa-> greencard  which I've heard that if its not BigLaw firms most likely they won't sponsor you so that I end up with lots of student debts and looking for firms to hire me forever . What I heard is that if you don't attend Top 20 -30 US law schools you'll have hard time finding a job with good $$$ , so the other option is UK LLB , finish it , pass NCA -> Ontario bar - > article -> finally getting a job , obviously I might not be able to be as lucky as Canadian JD graduates , and I'll have hard time getting a job in Ontario too but its not impossible either 

so here are the questions

1- Is it better if I attend US Tier 3 schools , pass the bar of that state , looking for 1000 firms to hire & sponsor me 😬? I'm interested in California , which has so many of law schools (both ABA and Non-ABA approved ) but those that I have in mind are Chapman , California western , University of San Diego & Southwestern - If I'm lucky enough maybe I can transfer to one of the UCs 

* I'm Iranian - Canadian ( I have a Canadian Passport )  , so getting a green card its even harder than ever for Iranians who want to study and practice in US thanks to Trump ! 

or 

2- Should I choose UK LLB , move back to Canada , pass NCA & Bar , and practicing in Canada for a while and apply for LLM in US and having hopes to eventually end up there which is more cheaper than the other option ! 

*** BTW is it really that hard to get a job in US firms if you don't attend " Prestigious" schools or top 50 schools ? 

I might not be as great as a typical JD applicant but it doesn't mean I don't have the capabilities of becoming a lawyer , thats what Canada does and they'll be like you're not 3.8 gpa and 160+ LSAT , so you can't study law 🙄

Anyways I really want to hear what you guys think about this situation that I'm in it right now , and which one you would choose . 

Thanks in advance :)  

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1 hour ago, Jasminess said:

Hi everyone , I decided to join this forum so that I can share what my journey is and you guys might be able to help me with . I've done tons and toooons of research so I know that the job market in US is not that great unless you attend T-14 schools and securing good positions  , Canadian schools are super competitive and hard to get into and UK LLB yes is its easier thats why a lot of people go there lol 

So a little bit about me , I did Psychology Hons at York University , graduated with B gpa ( 3.0 /4 ) , took LSAT once scored 155 , but I'm retaking it again . I know that my GPA is  not good for Canadian schools except Windsor (little chance ) so I decided to apply for US JD programs at Tier 3 schools +  apply for UK schools , I'm planning to eventually move to US and practice there in the next 6 7 years ( I want to move out of Toronto for many reasons )  but if I attend US schools costs more and my permanent residency status is not clear unless a law firm hires me and sponsors me for visa-> greencard  which I've heard that if its not BigLaw firms most likely they won't sponsor you so that I end up with lots of student debts and looking for firms to hire me forever . What I heard is that if you don't attend Top 20 -30 US law schools you'll have hard time finding a job with good $$$ , so the other option is UK LLB , finish it , pass NCA -> Ontario bar - > article -> finally getting a job , obviously I might not be able to be as lucky as Canadian JD graduates , and I'll have hard time getting a job in Ontario too but its not impossible either 

so here are the questions

1- Is it better if I attend US Tier 3 schools , pass the bar of that state , looking for 1000 firms to hire & sponsor me 😬? I'm interested in California , which has so many of law schools (both ABA and Non-ABA approved ) but those that I have in mind are Chapman , California western , University of San Diego & Southwestern - If I'm lucky enough maybe I can transfer to one of the UCs 

* I'm Iranian - Canadian ( I have a Canadian Passport )  , so getting a green card its even harder than ever for Iranians who want to study and practice in US thanks to Trump ! 

or 

2- Should I choose UK LLB , move back to Canada , pass NCA & Bar , and practicing in Canada for a while and apply for LLM in US and having hopes to eventually end up there which is more cheaper than the other option ! 

*** BTW is it really that hard to get a job in US firms if you don't attend " Prestigious" schools or top 50 schools ? 

I might not be as great as a typical JD applicant but it doesn't mean I don't have the capabilities of becoming a lawyer , thats what Canada does and they'll be like you're not 3.8 gpa and 160+ LSAT , so you can't study law 🙄

Anyways I really want to hear what you guys think about this situation that I'm in it right now , and which one you would choose . 

Thanks in advance :) 

Hi, if your GPA is 3.0 in accordance with the OLSAS scale, you may be able to get in some Canadian law schools once you have an LSAT score of 160+; Specifically, depending upon your ECs, personal statements, or LORs, you may have chances at TRU, Lakehead, Windsor, or Ryerson Law if you have an LSAT score of 160+. 

So, I strongly advise you to focus on increasing your LSAT score.

Lastly, do not even consider attending non-ABA-approved US law schools!! These are just predatory schools!!!  

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Posted (edited)

It sounds like maybe you haven't done as much research as you thought if you're considering non-ABA approved third and fourth tier law schools in the States; you're seriously asking about job prospects there given the bloody job market and how even T-14 grads seem to be struggling, and a UK LLB that will accept anyone breathing? Are you do or die law school? If you plan on moving to the States anyways, why not just go into something else - perhaps apply to law school a few years down the road when you've saved up financially and have some more perspective on reality/life. A foreign law degree isn't going to help you much in the States either. Law is a jurisdictional degree. 

In any event, your chances at a Canadian law school are not totally sunk, especially if you can raise your LSAT score. Your current plans with a UK or US law degree are extremely unrealistic, far-fetched, and frankly irresponsible. It sounds like you come from money and have rich parents footing the bill here. Make their lives easier and start thinking like a responsible adult before you make a decision. 

Edited by Deadpool

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I don’t think it’s fair to say this: “you're not 3.8 gpa and 160+ LSAT , so you can't study law”

 I think having a good cgpa is reflective of your studying habits as a student and can showcase how well you may do taking law courses/being a student.

I knew from the beginning I’d have a significant amount of trouble getting a 160+ LSAT, but I knew my CGPA was in my control, so I worked especially hard for a decent cgpa. I eventually got accepted to a decent school without a 160+ lsat.

I strongly believe the application has 4 parts (LSAT, CGPA, EC, LOR), but you may see some people not put a great amount of emphasis on ECs and LOR. But in your case having some impressive ECs may help your application. 

You’re CGPA isn’t too hot but you have 3 other sections, which you can do absolutely amazing in to have a decent chance in Canada. Don’t get stuck on your low cgpa (3.0 isn’t too bad). Try Canada first before anything else IMO. 

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5 hours ago, Jasminess said:

Hi everyone , I decided to join this forum so that I can share what my journey is and you guys might be able to help me with . I've done tons and toooons of research so I know that the job market in US is not that great unless you attend T-14 schools and securing good positions  , Canadian schools are super competitive and hard to get into and UK LLB yes is its easier thats why a lot of people go there lol 

So a little bit about me , I did Psychology Hons at York University , graduated with B gpa ( 3.0 /4 ) , took LSAT once scored 155 , but I'm retaking it again . I know that my GPA is  not good for Canadian schools except Windsor (little chance ) so I decided to apply for US JD programs at Tier 3 schools +  apply for UK schools , I'm planning to eventually move to US and practice there in the next 6 7 years ( I want to move out of Toronto for many reasons )  but if I attend US schools costs more and my permanent residency status is not clear unless a law firm hires me and sponsors me for visa-> greencard  which I've heard that if its not BigLaw firms most likely they won't sponsor you so that I end up with lots of student debts and looking for firms to hire me forever . What I heard is that if you don't attend Top 20 -30 US law schools you'll have hard time finding a job with good $$$ , so the other option is UK LLB , finish it , pass NCA -> Ontario bar - > article -> finally getting a job , obviously I might not be able to be as lucky as Canadian JD graduates , and I'll have hard time getting a job in Ontario too but its not impossible either 

so here are the questions

1- Is it better if I attend US Tier 3 schools , pass the bar of that state , looking for 1000 firms to hire & sponsor me 😬? I'm interested in California , which has so many of law schools (both ABA and Non-ABA approved ) but those that I have in mind are Chapman , California western , University of San Diego & Southwestern - If I'm lucky enough maybe I can transfer to one of the UCs 

* I'm Iranian - Canadian ( I have a Canadian Passport )  , so getting a green card its even harder than ever for Iranians who want to study and practice in US thanks to Trump ! 

or 

2- Should I choose UK LLB , move back to Canada , pass NCA & Bar , and practicing in Canada for a while and apply for LLM in US and having hopes to eventually end up there which is more cheaper than the other option ! 

*** BTW is it really that hard to get a job in US firms if you don't attend " Prestigious" schools or top 50 schools ? 

I might not be as great as a typical JD applicant but it doesn't mean I don't have the capabilities of becoming a lawyer , thats what Canada does and they'll be like you're not 3.8 gpa and 160+ LSAT , so you can't study law 🙄

Anyways I really want to hear what you guys think about this situation that I'm in it right now , and which one you would choose . 

Thanks in advance :) 

 

It's incredibly difficult to advocate for any of the proposed options in good conscience - all will lead to you going into what will likely be +100K in debt (and a 3-4 year investment of time depending on your selection) for prospects that will, except for in truly exceptional circumstances, yield job prospects no better than the ones you have currently. None are positive for the legal community writ large, and most importantly none yield positive outcomes for you.

As stated above, taking a year or two and gaining some work experience and perspective while working on raising your LSAT into the 160+ range for a better shot at Canadian schools would be the most mature, and in the long term by far the best yielding, personal option. It's not impossible that you'll realize that the professional world offers an incredible array of options to be prosperous and make important and recognized contributions to society without a JD.  Best of luck in all of your endeavours!

 

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14 hours ago, ArchivesandMuseums said:

Hi, if your GPA is 3.0 in accordance with the OLSAS scale, you may be able to get in some Canadian law schools once you have an LSAT score of 160+; Specifically, depending upon your ECs, personal statements, or LORs, you may have chances at TRU, Lakehead, Windsor, or Ryerson Law if you have an LSAT score of 160+. 

So, I strongly advise you to focus on increasing your LSAT score.

Lastly, do not even consider attending non-ABA-approved US law schools!! These are just predatory schools!!!  

I'll definitely try my best to get 160+ on LSAT and apply for pretty much all Canadian schools except UofT & McGill , I mean Canadian schools are the best option for me but since my GPA isn't that great I can predict that chances of getting into Canadian JD programs are pretty low , since I'm planning to move to US in the next couple years I'll do my LLM and licensing examinations/Bar in whatever state I'll move to . No I found ABA approved schools and chose them but they're not top US schools  , thank you so much for replying :)

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14 hours ago, Luckycharm said:

Do you have a plan B besides law school?

Nope . This is what i chose and I'm gonna be working on it for now 

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Check how your GPA breaks down and why it is a 3.0.  Worst case you had a 3.0 every year with exactly B grades the whole time.  If you have two years (Better if your last two) with a 4.0 and then your other two are a 2.0 then you are looking better.  If you have 75 of your grades as As and B +s and 25% Cs and Ds then you are looking better.  I would look at specifically what each school takes into consideration as far as your grades because there are best 2 schools, last 2 schools and schools that have a method of calculation where they drop a certain amount of your worst grades.

I would retake the LSAT and do a masters before going to the US or UK.  Not every school will consider post graduate grades but some will and hopefully you will score better.  Same with the LSAT as most schools look at the best one so improve there.  This option is much cheaper than the US/UK.

Also apply broadly after you figure out if any of the above two paragraphs work for you.

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Take another year of undergrad courses to boost your GPA, and retake the LSAT. Get a tutor for LSAT studying. That will take you one year, then apply to Canadian schools.

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2 hours ago, Bure10 said:

Check how your GPA breaks down and why it is a 3.0.  Worst case you had a 3.0 every year with exactly B grades the whole time.  If you have two years (Better if your last two) with a 4.0 and then your other two are a 2.0 then you are looking better.  If you have 75 of your grades as As and B +s and 25% Cs and Ds then you are looking better.  I would look at specifically what each school takes into consideration as far as your grades because there are best 2 schools, last 2 schools and schools that have a method of calculation where they drop a certain amount of your worst grades.

I would retake the LSAT and do a masters before going to the US or UK.  Not every school will consider post graduate grades but some will and hopefully you will score better.  Same with the LSAT as most schools look at the best one so improve there.  This option is much cheaper than the US/UK.

Also apply broadly after you figure out if any of the above two paragraphs work for you.

Thank you so much ,  honestly I don't want to waste 2 years and do masters but I'll spend more time to study for lsat and score as high as I can . 

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2 hours ago, wunderwoman said:

Take another year of undergrad courses to boost your GPA, and retake the LSAT. Get a tutor for LSAT studying. That will take you one year, then apply to Canadian schools.

Thank you so much 😊 I would definitely consider that to boost up my GPA

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13 hours ago, lawstudentmikescott said:

I don’t think it’s fair to say this: “you're not 3.8 gpa and 160+ LSAT , so you can't study law”

 I think having a good cgpa is reflective of your studying habits as a student and can showcase how well you may do taking law courses/being a student.

I knew from the beginning I’d have a significant amount of trouble getting a 160+ LSAT, but I knew my CGPA was in my control, so I worked especially hard for a decent cgpa. I eventually got accepted to a decent school without a 160+ lsat.

I strongly believe the application has 4 parts (LSAT, CGPA, EC, LOR), but you may see some people not put a great amount of emphasis on ECs and LOR. But in your case having some impressive ECs may help your application. 

You’re CGPA isn’t too hot but you have 3 other sections, which you can do absolutely amazing in to have a decent chance in Canada. Don’t get stuck on your low cgpa (3.0 isn’t too bad). Try Canada first before anything else IMO. 

Everyone knows how Canadian schools are , especially for medicine , dentistry and law . They don't want everybody to get in  and take over the market and $$$ , so what they do is they want you to be 100% in every aspect , like school , work , extra curricular activities and so on AND they consider less than %10 of applicants that are not 3.5+ GPA , obviously what ever I go through right now its my fault , I should've studied harder in my undergrad .. but other than my side its the nature of this country and their education/work  system that is connection based in most cases ( High paid jobs ) and certain people with certain backgrounds can take over on these high demand degrees/jobs which everyone knows but they pretend it doesn't exist ;) anyways thank you so much , I'll work on other parts of my application and try to do really well on the LSAT too and we'll see how it goes 

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Posted (edited)

I got into Windsor with a 2.99 and LSAT of 159. I was a mature applicant. I would always apply to CDN law schools based on the research I've seen. Personally however my cousin just finished her LLB from Liecester and has a job in Vancouver. She left in Sept of 2017 and is done. I applied in Sept of 2017 and am just finishing first year. So I definitely have moments of "what if"

Edited by AccountingForLaw
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If you want to be an American lawyer I am not sure why you’re going to spend time and money getting a Canadian J.D.

Law is jurisdictional and you will be wasting a lot of time and money learning about how it works in the wrong country. 

You are making it pretty difficult for yourself, needlessly. Work on your grades and LSAT and try to get into a decent school in the state where you intend to practise - AFTER you have sorted out your Visa requirements.

Just seems like you are doing things all out of order. It’s going to cost you. 

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3 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

If you want to be an American lawyer I am not sure why you’re going to spend time and money getting a Canadian J.D.

Law is jurisdictional and you will be wasting a lot of time and money learning about how it works in the wrong country. 

You are making it pretty difficult for yourself, needlessly. Work on your grades and LSAT and try to get into a decent school in the state where you intend to practise - AFTER you have sorted out your Visa requirements.

Just seems like you are doing things all out of order. It’s going to cost you. 

The thing is I don't want to move to US right now , also I think thats its not worth it to spend almost $170K for a JD that is not from a top school , if I had an admission from UCLA or USC or any of the UCs , I would definitely go for it but I would rather become certified in Ontario in the next 4 years  and I'll have the option of  LLM and and bar exam later on for US .. honestly its a hard decision considering the fact that my gpa is average and I don't have much hope for Canada , hope I can get into Windsor 

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17 minutes ago, AccountingForLaw said:

I got into Windsor with a 2.99 and LSAT of 159. I was a mature applicant. I would always apply to CDN law schools based on the research I've seen. Personally however my cousin just finished her LLB from Liecester and has a job in Vancouver. She left in Sept of 2017 and is done. I applied in Sept of 2017 and am just finishing first year. So I definitely have moments of "what if"

wow good for you😁 .. and yes there are all these what ifs that makes it harder , like what if I go for LLB and get done with 5 exams then bar and we are good to go .. you know .. its so hard and tricky 

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You’re forgetting articling. That is a big thing to forget. 

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Posted (edited)

I think you need to get out of the mentality that you don't have a chance at any law school in Canada. The system-blaming isn't helping either. 

Your GPA is kind of low but the other large component of a law school application is your LSAT, which you can still control. I would put all my efforts into getting as high of a score as possible. If you have a score in the mid-160's, you have a good shot of getting into a few schools. You can't give up before you've even tried. In any event, you'll be competing with colleagues that are competitive applicants from competitive law schools in Canada. If you believe in a free market and free-market economics, you should embrace the competition.

Edited by Aschenbach
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