Jump to content
461throwaway

Purpose of 2L/3L Grades

Recommended Posts

What purpose do 2L/3L grades serve if they can't impact OCI or Ontario clerkship application chances? Do they only help/harm those who have to do the articling recruit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Well, to begin with, you can probably cite the many things grades are used for over and above getting you a job. The fact that you have focused the entire educational endeavor down to a job interview is really kinda sad.

The remainder of the answer is this. Not everyone in law is on a conveyor belt towards practicing in large corporate firms. In fact the majority (though perhaps not the large majority) end up doing other things, that do not correspond to the schedule of events that you've been spoon fed by your CDO. So at all of the many, eccletic times that other students and graduates will be looking for jobs, and other employers will be hiring, of course they are looking at grades. Which is why (I can't believe I'm even writing this) law schools continue to grade their students even after the Almighty OCI recruit is done after first year.

You're free to want the career in law that you want, and I know very good people practicing in major firms. But only the extreme douchebags look out from their big towers on Bay Street and actually fail to realize that there are many, many fine lawyers whose lives and practice environments do not resemble their own.

In other words, quite frankly, if you even have to ask this question, you're in danger of becoming one of those douchebags. Don't.

Edited by Diplock
  • Like 10
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I applied to a job as a third year call the firm wanted to see my transcripts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess to answer the question more directly, grades are a commonly used metric to evaluate the quality of a student's work. In second and third year law school, grades serve to measure the quality of a student's work in second or third year law school courses. They are recorded on a transcript, which can be given to third-parties, who want a documentary record of that student's performance in second and third year law courses. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/13/2019 at 11:12 AM, Diplock said:

Well, to begin with, you can probably cite the many things grades are used for over and above getting you a job. The fact that you have focused the entire educational endeavor down to a job interview is really kinda sad.

The remainder of the answer is this. Not everyone in law is on a conveyor belt towards practicing in large corporate firms. In fact the majority (though perhaps not the large majority) end up doing other things, that do not correspond to the schedule of events that you've been spoon fed by your CDO. So at all of the many, eccletic times that other students and graduates will be looking for jobs, and other employers will be hiring, of course they are looking at grades. Which is why (I can't believe I'm even writing this) law schools continue to grade their students even after the Almighty OCI recruit is done after first year.

You're free to want the career in law that you want, and I know very good people practicing in major firms. But only the extreme douchebags look out from their big towers on Bay Street and actually fail to realize that there are many, many fine lawyers whose lives and practice environments do not resemble their own.

In other words, quite frankly, if you even have to ask this question, you're in danger of becoming one of those douchebags. Don't.

I think you could have expressed that a bit nicer. 

Edited by LawSchoolJock
not worth causing a debate over.
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I feel a lot of people in this thread are projecting their insecurities to answer a relatively simple, and mundane question...

The answer is that if you want to switch jobs later on in your career (e.g., say 2-5 years post-call), a lot of employers still look at your grades, and will request transcripts. A general policy is having good grades doesn't hurt you, having bad grades may hurt you. So try to give your best at all stages of law schools

Edited by johnalm
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, LawSchoolJock said:

I think you could have expressed that a bit nicer. 

Yeah. There's a law student asking a question based in the completely transparent assumption that lawyers such as myself don't even exist, and/or that we are so irrelevant it's hard to understand why any law school would even do something that a large firm might not care about.

Nah. I didn't feel like being polite in my reply.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Off the top of my head:

- Dean's list/Honours/Medals 

- If you are participating in articling week or looking for an articling position outside the official recruits you will probably have to show your grades

- If you don't get hired back from your articling position you will likely have to provide grades when applying to other firms

- I've also heard that if you're applying to different positions early in your career you may still be asked for grades

- If you decide to participate in certain ECs in your third year like law review having good 2L grades may help

- Certain clerkship positions care about your grades beyond 1L (there are provinces other than Ontario)

- A general sense of accomplishment. 

- The ability to use the grades as motivation to learn as much about the law as you can while you're still in law school

Edited by Toad
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 11:01 AM, 461throwaway said:

What purpose do 2L/3L grades serve if they can't impact OCI or Ontario clerkship application chances? Do they only help/harm those who have to do the articling recruit?

Grades aren't supposed to be transactional... they're just an assessment of how well you've performed in a given class. It isn't as though you get allotted a certain amount of B+s which you exchange for OCI tokens which in turn you exchange for job tokens.

Just take classes you're interested in and try to learn the best that you can. The best part about 2L and 3L is that you finally get to pick classes that you're interested in and learn things you want to learn... imagine getting that opportunity and not making the most out of it, especially while paying $20k++ a year.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/13/2019 at 12:10 PM, easttowest said:

Don’t you want a little Latin on your degree??

If I can't make my friends laugh by having "cum" on my LinkedIn profile, then what has this all been about?

  • Like 4
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The answer is right there in the question. If you are looking to do something that is not an OCI or Ontario clerkship application, they may be relevant.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When did 2L/3L grades become irrelevant to clerkships, in Ontario or elsewhere? Even assuming you apply ASAP, your first-semester 2L grades will be extremely important. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wtamow said:

Grades aren't supposed to be transactional... they're just an assessment of how well you've performed in a given class. It isn't as though you get allotted a certain amount of B+s which you exchange for OCI tokens which in turn you exchange for job tokens.

Just take classes you're interested in and try to learn the best that you can. The best part about 2L and 3L is that you finally get to pick classes that you're interested in and learn things you want to learn... imagine getting that opportunity and not making the most out of it, especially while paying $20k++ a year.

I don’t know why people get so offended when law students treat law school as a means to an end (not you in particular but this type of reaction is evoked quite often) 

Many people, including myself, went to law school to get a job; even a specific type of job. Of course I wanted to learn the law. But the most important objective for me, and possibly OP, was landing a job. At $20k+ per year I don’t think there is anything wrong with focusing on the job aspect of it 

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, healthlaw said:

I don’t know why people get so offended when law students treat law school as a means to an end (not you in particular but this type of reaction is evoked quite often) 

Many people, including myself, went to law school to get a job; even a specific type of job. Of course I wanted to learn the law. But the most important objective for me, and possibly OP, was landing a job. At $20k+ per year I don’t think there is anything wrong with focusing on the job aspect of it 

I'm also focusing on the job aspect of it, I just don't see a 2L OCI position as a secured job. You presumably have a stable, secure job that you've been working in for a number of years... but a 2L summer student isn't guaranteed to be hired back, for a number of different reasons.

If you are back on the market after articling, or have a change of heart and want to switch to a different area of law, is it not in your best interest to keep your grades up? Even if you stay on after articling, is it not in your best interest to at least engage with the material that you might be working with in the future? Especially since you have a choice on which courses you should take? Not only that, but many courses in 2L/3L aren't graded credits.

To me, it is incredibly irrational (and honestly scary) to just drop everything once you've gotten a 2L job. Especially since you're paying for the courses anyway, and you get to select which courses to take. What else should someone do for 16 months of law school?

I'm not offended, just the idea makes me anxious.

Edited by wtamow
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, wtamow said:

 

If you are back on the market after articling, or have a change of heart and want to switch to a different area of law, is it not in your best interest to keep your grades up? Even if you stay on after articling, is it not in your best interest to at least engage with the material that you might be working with in the future? Especially since you have a choice on which courses you should take? Not only that, but many courses in 2L/3L aren't graded credits.

 

Even the same area of law but different firm. Job postings (in the 3-5 yr range at least) frequently ask for grades -  "Looking for a candidate with excellent academic credentials" or something along those lines is often seen.

To OP, grades might not matter *as much* to you as they do for a classmate who doesn't have an articling position lined up, but they still matter. My take on grades after landing a 1L OCI spot and articles during 1L summer was that I could just enjoy the classes I was taking as opposed to freaking out about grades. It took some of the pressure off, but I still tried my hardest because I wanted to actually learn the material for practice.

Long story short - grades count. At least early in your career.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wtamow said:

I'm also focusing on the job aspect of it, I just don't see a 2L OCI position as a secured job. You presumably have a stable, secure job that you've been working in for a number of years... but a 2L summer student isn't guaranteed to be hired back, for a number of different reasons.

If you are back on the market after articling, or have a change of heart and want to switch to a different area of law, is it not in your best interest to keep your grades up? Even if you stay on after articling, is it not in your best interest to at least engage with the material that you might be working with in the future? Especially since you have a choice on which courses you should take? Not only that, but many courses in 2L/3L aren't graded credits.

To me, it is incredibly irrational (and honestly scary) to just drop everything once you've gotten a 2L job. Especially since you're paying for the courses anyway, and you get to select which courses to take. What else should someone do for 16 months of law school?

I'm not offended, just the idea makes me anxious.

You'll be surprised at how many students stop caring about school once they've secured positions. 3LOL is the commonly referred to acronym. My friends were happy to just pass their courses and many took the pass/fail option when York went on strike. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

You'll be surprised at how many students stop caring about school once they've secured positions. 3LOL is the commonly referred to acronym. My friends were happy to just pass their courses and many took the pass/fail option when York went on strike. 

Wow, is that ever short-sighted....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



  • Recent Posts

    • What do we need to bring to orientation? Should we bring our backpack and laptop? Also, how should we dress?
    • This unit is still available. The rent has been reduced to $1390. Let me know if you have any questions, or see the Kijiji post for more information.
    • Either way, avoid the term "poly marriage" in your interview. Oh, and check the Ontario Reports, and the OBA classifieds:  https://www.oba.org/Publications-and-Resources/Job-Board The first posting on the OBA classifieds is for a 0-2 year call for a criminal position.  Mr. Confente has struck me as a reasonable man in my run-ins with him, although I can't speak to his virtues as an employer. 
    • Hey guys my stats are shown. What would be my chances for osgoode and other Ontario schools? Also, it is all full course load except for the last year where I took 9 courses during the year, instead of the usual 10
    • I don't want to be too affirmative with my comments because at the end of the day, it's still an educated? guess at best. Anyways, I definitely wouldn't put so much weight on your ps, it really is going to a small factor. If an 3.75 l2 and 164 didn't get you in then either look to your cgpa or improving your lsat. I would also double check that your l2 is correct. You can possibly call Queens and ask what they calculated your l2 as. 
×
×
  • Create New...