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Ester

LPP program

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11 minutes ago, Ester said:

Just wanted to see what you guys think about LPP vs articling? 

I’m sure it’s been debating at nauseam on this thread. Majority of the people I will imagine be elitist and shit on LPP. 

My understanding from my profs when I was in law school was that there is a risk it may create a two tier system - those who couldn’t and those who could land articling. 

When I was applying for articling, principals I would encounter had a similar impression. Although the students may have a good experience, there’s an inadvertent two tier system created. There’s also a concern that you’re not getting the same experience as you would doing 10 months of articling. 

Now that I’m practising I can’t say I’ve encountered lawyers from LPP. However, I can also assure you that articling wasn’t some make it or break it experience. It’s 10 months of saying yes and keeping your nose down. The real experience you get is from actually running your own files. Also the industry has to adapt given the articling crisis. 

 

I’m not sure what the answer is, but that’s the general consensus from my perspective. 

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33 minutes ago, Hqjet said:

I’m sure it’s been debating at nauseam on this thread. Majority of the people I will imagine be elitist and shit on LPP. 

My understanding from my profs when I was in law school was that there is a risk it may create a two tier system - those who couldn’t and those who could land articling. 

When I was applying for articling, principals I would encounter had a similar impression. Although the students may have a good experience, there’s an inadvertent two tier system created. There’s also a concern that you’re not getting the same experience as you would doing 10 months of articling. 

Now that I’m practising I can’t say I’ve encountered lawyers from LPP. However, I can also assure you that articling wasn’t some make it or break it experience. It’s 10 months of saying yes and keeping your nose down. The real experience you get is from actually running your own files. Also the industry has to adapt given the articling crisis. 

 

I’m not sure what the answer is, but that’s the general consensus from my perspective. 

Thank you for your detailed and honest message. 

My experience , I did not even look for articles. I thought it would take a lot of time and yet no guarantee. So I decided to go with LPP.  But I am considering looking for articles before LPP begins in August. Because I’m panicking I may not find a job post LPP. :( 

don’t know what do to 

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9 minutes ago, Ester said:

Thank you for your detailed and honest message. 

My experience , I did not even look for articles. I thought it would take a lot of time and yet no guarantee. So I decided to go with LPP.  But I am considering looking for articles before LPP begins in August. Because I’m panicking I may not find a job post LPP. :( 

don’t know what do to 

I would check the Rules to make sure you’re allowed to do this. If the LPP is anything like Articling then it’s a commitment that you can’t just back out of without proper notice

Also, I doubt there are many good opportunities left for 2019 articles considering that it’s 7ish weeks away. 

Anecdotally, I’ve met a few graduates from the LPP who reported that they had a great experience and don’t regret their choice. I also have more than a handful of friends who weren’t hired back after articling and are currently looking. So I wouldn’t assume Articles = an automatic ticket to a full time legal position 

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15 minutes ago, Ester said:

Thank you for your detailed and honest message. 

My experience , I did not even look for articles. I thought it would take a lot of time and yet no guarantee. So I decided to go with LPP.  But I am considering looking for articles before LPP begins in August. Because I’m panicking I may not find a job post LPP. :( 

don’t know what do to 

You didn't even look for articles?!? Because it was took much work and no one would offer you a guarantee? Holy hell.

Look. It's possible to go through the LPP system and come out on the other side okay, but you've got to be willing to hustle. You've got to want it. And by the sounds of things, you can't even be bothered to an ordinary degree, much less an extraordinary degree.

Articles are a job. You apply to them, you get interviews, you may or may not get hired afterwards. That's the employment market, for everyone who isn't rich or guaranteed a spot in the family business where Uncle Larry won't fire you no matter how much you suck. Everyone else puts in the effort, without any guarantee of outcomes, and accepts that's life.

Without being any harsher than I've already been, you need to get your priorities straightened out. Because there won't be a job waiting for you on the other side of this, no matter how you go about it. What you do is stop sitting on your ass, and hustle. Because I guarantee most of your competition is doing so, and no one wants to hire the guy (or gal) who can't be bothered doing shit on their own, because it seems like too much effort.

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2 hours ago, Ester said:

Thank you for your detailed and honest message. 

My experience , I did not even look for articles. I thought it would take a lot of time and yet no guarantee. So I decided to go with LPP.  But I am considering looking for articles before LPP begins in August. Because I’m panicking I may not find a job post LPP. :( 

don’t know what do to 

Good luck !

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3 hours ago, Ester said:

Thank you for your detailed and honest message. 

My experience , I did not even look for articles. I thought it would take a lot of time and yet no guarantee. So I decided to go with LPP.  But I am considering looking for articles before LPP begins in August. Because I’m panicking I may not find a job post LPP. :( 

 don’t know what do to 

I think you should still try to find Articling if you can. I am seeing new positions pop up everyday, so you should at least apply to a few! Also, I believe you can back out of the LPP with all of your money until the first couple of weeks of the program, so you should do it ASAP if you want to avoid any financial consequences! Good luck :) I know it's hard but hope you make the right decision regardless!

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8 hours ago, Ester said:

Thank you for your detailed and honest message. 

My experience , I did not even look for articles. I thought it would take a lot of time and yet no guarantee. So I decided to go with LPP.  But I am considering looking for articles before LPP begins in August. Because I’m panicking I may not find a job post LPP. :( 

don’t know what do to 

You really need to think hard. While there are still articling positions available, your choices are extremely limited (unless you widen the scope of your practice area and geographical area), since you have passed the deadlines for a good chunk of them. 

Honestly, at this point, you are better off either sticking with the LPP or defer your articling search until later in the year. I do know that a number of articling positions show up after August, but that would be a risky move if you don't know what you are looking for. Generally speaking, the current articling positions available, should you search now, will likely be unpaid or paid at an extremely low salary. If you don't have much financial obligations, you can go ahead with the articling position if it is your preferred practice area. Otherwise, you might as well stick with the LPP. Based on what I've heard, around 70% of the LPP placements are paid.

I heard that the chance of being hired back is pretty low after completing the LPP. Many of them ended up working as sole practitioners, with a small proportion staying at the firms they were placed at.

You still have until the end of August to decide whether you want to stay in the LPP or defer your articling search. 

8 hours ago, healthlaw said:

I would check the Rules to make sure you’re allowed to do this. If the LPP is anything like Articling then it’s a commitment that you can’t just back out of without proper notice

Also, I doubt there are many good opportunities left for 2019 articles considering that it’s 7ish weeks away. 

Anecdotally, I’ve met a few graduates from the LPP who reported that they had a great experience and don’t regret their choice. I also have more than a handful of friends who weren’t hired back after articling and are currently looking. So I wouldn’t assume Articles = an automatic ticket to a full time legal position 

I believe the interviews for LPP work placements have not started yet (I think the first round of interviews starts in July), but I do agree that it's unlikely that the OP can back out once the employer accepted them for the placement. Not only would it look bad for the OP, it would also ruin the reputation of the program, and I don't think the coordinators would risk that.

Edited by dilemma
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17 hours ago, healthlaw said:

I would check the Rules to make sure you’re allowed to do this. If the LPP is anything like Articling then it’s a commitment that you can’t just back out of without proper notice

Also, I doubt there are many good opportunities left for 2019 articles considering that it’s 7ish weeks away. 

Anecdotally, I’ve met a few graduates from the LPP who reported that they had a great experience and don’t regret their choice. I also have more than a handful of friends who weren’t hired back after articling and are currently looking. So I wouldn’t assume Articles = an automatic ticket to a full time legal position 

I have heard that even if you start LPP and manage to find an articling position, you can make the switch. Not sure how it works technically though.

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7 minutes ago, wtamow said:

I have heard that even if you start LPP and manage to find an articling position, you can make the switch. Not sure how it works technically though.

That's my understanding also. May be different once you actually take a job placement. But there's definitely no obligation to the LPP program itself, in a professional sense. Not like articling. It was suggested above this might be the case, but I'm almost 100% sure it's not.

And really, this just reinforces the basic point. The stigma will never go away as long as the LPP program is, defacto, the solution for people who can't find articles. Notwithstanding the few cases who may just find it more convenient, that will always be what it is, for the vast majority. Anyone who can still find articles is best advised to do so. And even the LPP is designed to let them go smoothly, if they get that chance. 

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I pray to the lord that we're all being trolled, because this level of naivete just seems impossible.

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5 hours ago, wtamow said:

I have heard that even if you start LPP and manage to find an articling position, you can make the switch. Not sure how it works technically though.

Yes, you will get a full refund of the $3164.00 if you sign up for the LPP and decide to leave by the end of the first in-person week in late August. You are still allowed to leave the program after that at any time, but you will not get any of your money back. However, I am not sure what your obligations would be to your placement employer if you land a position because they may have you sign on to something. 

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4 hours ago, Grinch said:

Yes, you will get a full refund of the $3164.00 if you sign up for the LPP and decide to leave by the end of the first in-person week in late August. You are still allowed to leave the program after that at any time, but you will not get any of your money back. However, I am not sure what your obligations would be to your placement employer if you land a position because they may have you sign on to something. 

I wonder why you would get your money back if articling students also have to pay the $3160. Perhaps you would then have to pay upon securing articles? 

(I realize you may not actually know the answer I just thought this was interesting)

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8 hours ago, utmguy said:

I pray to the lord that we're all being trolled, because this level of naivete just seems impossible.

🤣 OP’s intent aside, this has generated some good information for future readers. Grinch’s post was probably one of the most useful I’ve seen on this topic

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1 hour ago, healthlaw said:

I wonder why you would get your money back if articling students also have to pay the $3160. Perhaps you would then have to pay upon securing articles? 

(I realize you may not actually know the answer I just thought this was interesting)

You actually don't get your money back if you already secured an articling position and are making the switch. The amount for the LPP and the articling program are the same, so no changes will be made, as long as you switch before the deadline (end of August for the Ryerson LPP; not sure for the uOttawa LPP).

The candidate will only get back 50% of the fees if they leave after the first two weeks of the program. After four weeks, there is no refund whatsoever.

I suppose the actual refund comes if the candidate decides to withdraw from the licensing process altogether.

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On 6/11/2019 at 8:11 PM, Born2Law said:

I think you should still try to find Articling if you can. I am seeing new positions pop up everyday, so you should at least apply to a few! Also, I believe you can back out of the LPP with all of your money until the first couple of weeks of the program, so you should do it ASAP if you want to avoid any financial consequences! Good luck :) I know it's hard but hope you make the right decision regardless!

Thank you so much ! I’m relieved now. 

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20 hours ago, Grinch said:

I did the LPP. It's an 8 month program (Late August to Late April). You spend 3 weeks in-person at Ryerson (last week August, second week October, and mid-December) and the rest of the 4 months is done online via a 4 or 5 persons virtual law firm with a supervising lawyer. You have two supervising lawyers in the program. One from late August to mid-October and the second from mid-October to mid-December (when the classroom component ends). 

You complete work in many areas of law including business, administrative, criminal, civil litigation, wills and estates, real estate, family, construction, and professional responsibility. It is the best preparation if you want to be a sole practitioner or run your own law firm someday. You learn practice management skills and docket your hours daily. You do real legal work in the program (in a mock environment of course), so I think it could be better than a lot of articling positions out there that have you only doing research and fetching Joe's coffee.  

Personally, I think it's too many areas of law to cover in just a 4 month time period. And as someone who went to a Canadian law school and did practicals in law school, I didn't find this component to be as beneficial as others who never worked in a practical legal environment and wanted to brush up on their Canadian law in various areas. If you know that you want to do business or criminal for example, you might find it frustrating to have to learn family, admin, civil, etc. 

Now, let's come to the real juice that everyone wants to know about - the placements. In the first or second week of July, the LPP will release a list of summer employers you can apply to (around 40-60 positions total). They hold interviews in mid-August. These positions are harder to get because there are 230-250 students applying for them. The remaining positions will trickle out throughout August-December. Almost all of them are paid, but what the LPP doesn't tell you is that almost none hire back and they pay $15/hr - so minimum wage. There are in-house corporations, major banks, some Biglaw firms, government, general firms, soles, etc. Overall, I'd say 70-80% of the placements are paid, but most pay minimum wage or close to it. I did not have a problem with this though since it is only for 4 months (for most people at least). 

Here is the biggest catch all though with the LPP placements. You must accept all interviews and must accept your first offer received (they encourage you to apply broadly so that you can ensure you secure a position). So it does not matter if your dream job in New York comes calling a day later if Joe's General Firm in the middle of nowhere offers you a position first. Failure to abide by the LPP rules may result in serious consequences, including not being allowed to apply for further placement employers or completing the program. 

You can see the list of employers for the previous years here - http://www.lpp.ryerson.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/LPP-Program-Overview-Candidate-Feb-2019b.pdf (pages 8-17).

The best placements are highly competitive to land of course. This past year we had heavy competition for the financial institutions and corporations, government, and Blakes. The split in the program is around 60-40 - foreign law school graduates to Canadian law school graduates. Many of the foreign trained lawyers in the program have extensive work experience and credentials; there were law professors, MBA graduates and PhDs and many whom have practiced law in other countries prior to coming to Canada. The LPP is the path of least resistance for them (like how OCIs and articling recruit are the path of least resistance for Canadian law students). You often hear about Canadian law school grads in the program complaining about how the placement rate was not what they expected. It's because they were not competitive candidates, to begin with, and are now competing with foreign trained law graduates who have years of experience on them. Employers view the Canadian who went to Bond very differently from that person who was born and raised in the Middle East or Asia, went to law school there, and maybe even practiced law. 

I hustled and landed something pretty great in the program and was also hired back by my employer. Most of my peers were not so fortunate and most placement employers do not hire back their students because to them it's akin to a co-op program and the in-house teams are small and hire experienced lawyers generally (from the Biglaw firms). The program is what you make of it like anything else. I would definitely take a good, paid articling job over the LPP program (10-12 months articling is better than a 4 month placement in my strong opinion); however, the LPP program is a solid alternative if you want to take a chance and don't have good articling prospects. Anyone want further information about the program, feel free to PM me. 

Thank you so much. I will try to find something before August. If I’m not lucky, I will probably have to go with LPP , As I have already wasted so much time, taking my sweet time becoming licensed. 

 

Thanks 

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