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Just Another Post About Landing a 2L Job on Bay St

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32 minutes ago, harveyspecter993 said:

I meant having someone with power at the firm not someone to advocate powerfully.

 

4 minutes ago, erinl2 said:

Yeah, this is so unlikely to happen that it isn't worth pursuing. How would you even know if this particular partner was involved on the hiring committee?  The people who actually interview you in the recruitment process are the ones you have to impress. 

I agree; it's so unlikely...it's going to require an extremely zany scheme.

Harveyspector993, we're going to fix it so you save the partner's life by pushing him out of the path of my speeding and careening car. 

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8 minutes ago, QuincyWagstaff said:

 

I agree; it's so unlikely...it's going to require an extremely zany scheme.

Harveyspector993, we're going to fix it so you save the partner's life by pushing him out of the path of my speeding and careening car. 

The bar for making an impression an a partner is that high? I hope it gets better when you're an associate.

Edited by harveyspecter993

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I use coffees mostly as informational interviews.

I ask lawyers for coffee when I'm interested in their practice, and want to ask them questions about it. If they agree, then yes, sometimes in the course of conversation, we develop a rapport. That might lead us to keep in touch. And who knows. Maybe that will provide me with some nebulous benefit down the line. However, that's a side benefit of the main purpose -- learning about their practice. 

I agree that a face-to-face meeting can create a positive impression. I just don't expect a lawyer (partner or associate) to fall in love and tie the knot after our first date -- merely allowing someone to buy me coffee will likely not accord me  preferential treatment in a future hiring process. Maybe it does for other people. But if you're going into those meetings with the expectation that it's going to directly get you a job, you're probably going to be disappointed.

Edited by realpseudonym
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5 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

I use coffees mostly as informational interviews.

I ask lawyers for coffee when I'm interested in their practice, and want to ask them questions about it. If they agree, then yes, sometimes in the course of conversation, we develop a rapport. That might lead us to keep in touch. And who knows. Maybe that will provide me with some nebulous benefit down the line. However, that's a side benefit of the main purpose -- learning about their practice. 

I agree that a face-to-face meeting can create a positive impression. I just don't expect a lawyer (partner or associate) to fall in love and tie the knot after our first date -- merely allowing someone to buy me coffee will likely not accord me  preferential treatment in a future hiring process. Maybe it does for other people. But if you're going into those meetings with the expectation that it's going to directly get you a job, you're probably going to be disappointed.

And in fact will often ruin whatever potential fruits that kind of professional relationship could bring in the future, because they'll get the wrong impression of you.

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7 hours ago, wtamow said:

 

What if the recruitment person is also a partner? This happens to be the case in two specific firms I am highly interested in. Both partners seem really busy so I am trying to proceed with caution.

Here's the thing about attempting to meet with a partner on the recruitment committee - the partner's practice is of no use to you whatsoever. As this is the case, the only other reason a student would want to sit with the partner is because he or she thinks it will give them a leg up on the competition; it won't. 

As a student who just went through the Bay Street process, who is approximately halfway done his 2L summer Bay position, I can assure you that anyone you meet will almost immediately forget you. You'll go through OCIs, then in firms, then a second round of in firms, all with the same partners on the recruitment committee. On your first day as a summer they'll come up to you and ask who you are again. Then on the third week they'll ask if you're an articling student or a summer student. Individuality more or less fades at this point.

If you want good quality advice about the legal industry just speak with associates.

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13 hours ago, FingersCr0ssed said:

Here's the thing about attempting to meet with a partner on the recruitment committee - the partner's practice is of no use to you whatsoever. As this is the case, the only other reason a student would want to sit with the partner is because he or she thinks it will give them a leg up on the competition; it won't. 

As a student who just went through the Bay Street process, who is approximately halfway done his 2L summer Bay position, I can assure you that anyone you meet will almost immediately forget you. You'll go through OCIs, then in firms, then a second round of in firms, all with the same partners on the recruitment committee. On your first day as a summer they'll come up to you and ask who you are again. Then on the third week they'll ask if you're an articling student or a summer student. Individuality more or less fades at this point.

If you want good quality advice about the legal industry just speak with associates.

I don't want advice on the legal industry, just want to know what the summer program actually entails which seems to be not present on the website of most small firms, under ~20 lawyers. There are no multiple partners on the recruitment committee, just one contact that I can see on the website. Why list someone as the key recruitment contact in a small firm, if I am not supposed to contact them?

I'm sure the above advice all applies fairly well to large firms, which have an array of articling and summer students and a full recruitment committee with many professionals and partners. My question was more about smaller firms/boutiques that already don't have much info on their websites.

I think you're assuming a lot, both about my intentions (which don't coincide with @harveyspecter993's, as I am not that impressive of a person to meet with) and the size and type of firms I'm interested in.

Edited by wtamow

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15 minutes ago, wtamow said:

I don't want advice on the legal industry, just want to know what the summer program actually entails which seems to be not present on the website of most small firms, under ~20 lawyers. There are no multiple partners on the recruitment committee, just one contact that I can see on the website. Why list someone as the key recruitment contact in a small firm, if I am not supposed to contact them?

I'm sure the above advice all applies fairly well to large firms, which have an array of articling and summer students and a full recruitment committee with many professionals and partners. My question was more about smaller firms/boutiques that already don't have much info on their websites.

I think you're assuming a lot, both about my intentions (which don't coincide with @harveyspecter993's, as I am not that impressive of a person to meet with) and the size and type of firms I'm interested in.

You’re asking questions in a thread about Bay Street positions, of course I’m assuming that’s what you want advice about.

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9 minutes ago, FingersCr0ssed said:

You’re asking questions in a thread about Bay Street positions, of course I’m assuming that’s what you want advice about.

Small firms and boutiques exist and thrive on Bay St, and participate in 2L OCIs. So yes, that is what I want advice about...

Edited by wtamow

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1 hour ago, wtamow said:

Small firms and boutiques exist and thrive on Bay St, and participate in 2L OCIs. So yes, that is what I want advice about...

The monicker “Bay Street” isn’t used to describe small firms though.

However, now that I comprehend the question, for small firms I don’t see any reason as to why you wouldn’t be able to contact someone on the recruitment committee even if this person is a partner. If there’s an associate on the committee I still believe they would be your best bet, but by all means contact the person claiming to engage in recruitment.

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1 minute ago, FingersCr0ssed said:

The monicker “Bay Street” isn’t used to describe small firms though.

However, now that I comprehend the question, for small firms I don’t see any reason as to why you wouldn’t be able to contact someone on the recruitment committee even if this person is a partner. If there’s an associate on the committee I still believe they would be your best bet, but by all means contact the person claiming to engage in recruitment.

What is the moniker that I should be using to describe a small or mid-size firm located on Bay St, that participates in the 2L recruit and pays competitively compared to other firms in the Bay St corridor?

I'm really not comprehending the difference, beyond pointless elitist gatekeeping.

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1 hour ago, wtamow said:

What is the moniker that I should be using to describe a small or mid-size firm located on Bay St, that participates in the 2L recruit and pays competitively compared to other firms in the Bay St corridor?

I'm really not comprehending the difference, beyond pointless elitist gatekeeping.

Boutique is the proper way to denote elitist gatekeeping when speaking about a small "bay street" firm 

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11 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Boutique is the proper way to denote elitist gatekeeping when speaking about a small "bay street" firm 

Damn, what if they are full-service? Then it doesn't make much sense either, does it?

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It's not really about elitist gatekeeping as it is just an imprecise moniker. Call them boutique or mid-size firms. When you say Bay Street firm, people are just automatically going to assume you mean a bigger firm. Davies will get lumped in as a Bay Street firm despite being on Simcoe and some three person firm with an office in Scotia Plaza is not going to come to mind when you say "Bay Street firm".

Leaving that aside, the advice to "don't reach out to random partners" is specific to "don't reach out to random partners at a big firm when there is a recruitment avenue and associates for practice areas". It doesn't apply if the recruitment person also happens to be a partner.

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17 hours ago, FingersCr0ssed said:

As a student who just went through the Bay Street process, who is approximately halfway done his 2L summer Bay position, I can assure you that anyone you meet will almost immediately forget you. You'll go through OCIs, then in firms, then a second round of in firms, all with the same partners on the recruitment committee. On your first day as a summer they'll come up to you and ask who you are again. Then on the third week they'll ask if you're an articling student or a summer student. Individuality more or less fades at this point.

Your firm sounds depressing. Everyone I met during the recruit knows who I am, and often remembers our conversations. 

Then again, that might be because of how ugly I am or something. 

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20 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

It's not really about elitist gatekeeping as it is just an imprecise moniker. Call them boutique or mid-size firms. When you say Bay Street firm, people are just automatically going to assume you mean a bigger firm. Davies will get lumped in as a Bay Street firm despite being on Simcoe and some three person firm with an office in Scotia Plaza is not going to come to mind when you say "Bay Street firm".

Leaving that aside, the advice to "don't reach out to random partners" is specific to "don't reach out to random partners at a big firm when there is a recruitment avenue and associates for practice areas". It doesn't apply if the recruitment person also happens to be a partner.

People automatically assume I mean bigger firm despite clarifying multiple times on page one that I meant boutique and mid-size firms? This thread is already off-topic enough, just thought it was easier to piggy back off of Harveyspecter's question than to start a new thread about something so minor.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've seen people call self-proclaimed mid-size firms (such as Gardiner Roberts or Wildeboer Dellelce) "Bay St" firms. I'm obviously talking about firms that participate in the 2L recruit, and not Random Joe LLP who has never hired a summer student before. I don't see the big deal. When people say "2L job on Bay St", I would assume that means any well-known firm in the 2L recruit around Bay St. Not every firm in the 2L recruit on Bay St that has over 200 lawyers.

Furthermore, what about satellite offices of global firms? Paul Weiss' Toronto office has about ~15 lawyers in their office but I would still consider them a "Bay St" firm considering they participate in the 2L recruit, offer a competitive salary and are pretty notable.

Honestly, I feel like if someone is talking about only large or multi-national firms then they should just say that. I'm not bothered, it just seems like splitting hairs.

I apologize for leading the thread further off-topic, I'm just genuinely interested in this firm nomenclature stuff.

Edited by wtamow

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I would not consider Paul Weiss's satellite office a Bay Street firm, so that's where we differ. Anyway I agree your point became clear in your second post.

FingersCr0ssed responded to your first post (not your fault, they could have read further) but your first post simply cribbed off the title and asked:

"What if the recruitment person is also a partner? This happens to be the case in two specific firms I am highly interested in. Both partners seem really busy so I am trying to proceed with caution."

People reading that would assume you were talking about a bigger firm that has a dedicated recruitment stream with a student recruiter/coordinator and not a partner doing double duty. Once you clarified in your second post, I thought it was fairly straightforward, which is why I said to just reach out in that scenario.

 
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1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Your firm sounds depressing. Everyone I met during the recruit knows who I am, and often remembers our conversations. 

Then again, that might be because of how ugly I am or something. 

Judging by my friends’ experiences my firm is the cheerful one... Id hate to be at one of the well known hell holes.

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Is it unwise to apply to different offices of of the same firm for OCIs? Eg applying to both  BJ's Calgary and Toronto offices? My concern is that since the application periods overlap, the recruiter in each city would know about the separate application and question my commitment to their city.

Edited by harveyspecter993

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I feel like you have more fundamental obstacles to overcome in getting and staying hired. 

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On 6/14/2019 at 10:16 AM, wtamow said:

I don't want advice on the legal industry, just want to know what the summer program actually entails which seems to be not present on the website of most small firms, under ~20 lawyers. There are no multiple partners on the recruitment committee, just one contact that I can see on the website. Why list someone as the key recruitment contact in a small firm, if I am not supposed to contact them?

I'm sure the above advice all applies fairly well to large firms, which have an array of articling and summer students and a full recruitment committee with many professionals and partners. My question was more about smaller firms/boutiques that already don't have much info on their websites.

I think you're assuming a lot, both about my intentions (which don't coincide with @harveyspecter993's, as I am not that impressive of a person to meet with) and the size and type of firms I'm interested in.

If your question is about what the summer program actually entails, I think your best bet is to talk to students or junior associates. The person in charge of recruitment (whether they're a partner or someone who only does recruitment) will give you a more standard speech -- not to say that they won't be honest about the program, but the students will be able to give you the best idea of what to expect from your end. 

If for whatever reason, you want to speak to the recruitment contact though, the partner in charge of recruitment should be able to give you some info or at least point you to people who have time to chat (this may be the students). I think the "why are you emailing me?" response is more for partners who have no say or involvement in recruitment activities. The partner in charge of recruitment is not likely to have that reaction.

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