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Are you satisfied?

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10 minutes ago, Mycousinsteve said:

Let me know how that argument works out for you when drafting pleadings, I would love it if all the clients on the other side of my files had lawyers like you. 

This isn't a court room, this is a highly off-topic thread in an online message board.

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6 minutes ago, Newfoundlaw said:

...so you're proposing that only one party (in this scenario being you) in any given exchange has the right to express themselves.

Not to mention that you're alluding to a charter right, and I don't think the charter applies to LawStudents.ca

So before you attempt to insult my intelligence, please come better prepared. And honestly please just stop, you're only making yourself look more and more ignorant at this point

I think the ignorant people here are those who use “insults” such as “asshole” “ignorant” “dumb” and so forth to try and prove a point, rather than engaging in any form of meaningful and constructive debate. 

My critique has and remains that there is very clearly a far-left political correctness vibe on this thread, and any counterpoint to the contrary is met with name calling or sarcastic emoticons. 

Also my last comment was a shot again you for calling me “dumb” - I hope that would be your argument in a pleading or before a judge because it won’t end very well for you. 

Anyways to wrap things up as this thread has gone way off course, my perspective remains the same that while of course there are still issues in our society which need to be addressed, a person does not have to feel guilty or sorry for having worked hard in Their academics which has now landed them a meaningful career and remuneration. Those matters have nothing to do with skin colour or privilege, and should certainly not feel guilty, contrary to whatever you may be reading. Rather, we should celebrate each other’s success and use it as motivation to work harder and develop our own success.

Enjoy the rest of your day everyone 

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7 minutes ago, wtamow said:

This isn't a court room, this is a highly off-topic thread in an online message board.

Thank you for the clarification, I wasn’t sure. 

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Jaggers, the far-left management side labour lawyer! I literally fire workers for a living. I’m pretty far from left wing. 

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So if you acknowledge that you have inherent advantages over people based on unearned attributes you're a lefty?

Today I learned I'm a #Snowflake

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Mycousinsteve said:

I think the ignorant people here are those who use “insults” such as “asshole” “ignorant” “dumb” and so forth to try and prove a point, rather than engaging in any form of meaningful and constructive debate. 

My critique has and remains that there is very clearly a far-left political correctness vibe on this thread, and any counterpoint to the contrary is met with name calling or sarcastic emoticons. 

 Also my last comment was a shot again you for calling me “dumb” - I hope that would be your argument in a pleading or before a judge because it won’t end very well for you. 

Anyways to wrap things up as this thread has gone way off course, my perspective remains the same that while of course there are still issues in our society which need to be addressed, a person does not have to feel guilty or sorry for having worked hard in Their academics which has now landed them a meaningful career and remuneration. Those matters have nothing to do with skin colour or privilege, and should certainly not feel guilty, contrary to whatever you may be reading. Rather, we should celebrate each other’s success and use it as motivation to work harder and develop our own success.

Enjoy the rest of your day everyone 

Literally nobody in this thread has shamed or guilt-tripped or even apologized for anyone's successes. If merely saying that some people have it better than others gives you a clear indication of "far-left political correctness," then perhaps those insults aren't necessarily so unfounded.

Edited by xdarkwhite
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Mycousinsteve has successfully derailed this thread twice now, once because he's repeatedly shown just about the worst attention to detail of any of the lawyers that post on this site, and now a second time because he had a meltdown over someone else acknowledging, of their own volition and with no prompting, their own privilege.

Hopefully he gets over his martyrdom complex sometime soon, going through life incredibly conservative, stupid and as a perpetual victim and martyr isn't as lucrative in Canada as it is in the U.S.

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Please get back on topic.

On thread, I am generally satisfied but don't like the hours in private practice. I work at a great firm that has given me good mentor-ship and interesting/important work.

I am planning on going to government to do policy in November which I am excited for. 

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Posted (edited)

So....... anyway................... what was the question?

I'm not 5 years out, only 4,  but I'm reasonably satisfied. Still in that settling into what works and what doesn't, balancing life and work etc mentality.

Edited by ericontario

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3 minutes ago, ericontario said:

So....... anyway................... what was the question?

I'm not 5 years out, only 4,  but I'm reasonably satisfied. Still in that settling into what works and what doesn't, balancing life and work etc mentality.

I went through that in years 3 and 4 mostly. I made the jump out as I started my 5th year and never looked back.

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On 6/24/2019 at 8:02 PM, utmguy said:

Surprisingly I am content with both work/life balance and salary. 

My issue is moreso just a lack of fulfilling work, and mostly feeling like I'm a dispensable cog in a machine.

I worry about feeling that way one day too. Do you think you would need to leave law to find more fulfilling work? 

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I wish to contribute to this thread usefully, and I haven't done so yet. I've read this multiple times and wondered what useful observations I could possibly offer, and I keep coming back to the inherent complications of the question.

I never expected to attend post-secondary education at all. The vague sense of its possibility was in my world-view, but not at all the assumption that exists in many families. Neither of my parents completed university, though they toyed with it. None of my grandparents attended at all. I have cousins who went to school, but that's a bit different. I didn't start moving towards this career at all until I was older, in large part simply because it seemed inaccessible to me. And yes, I'm gesturing to privilege here, but not to continue the debate. The truth is, merely by entering into a respected profession, with all it entails, I've wildly exceeded both my own anticipated path in life and the expectations of everyone around me. There's some more personal stuff in there, but I prefer to be vague. Let's just say that anyone looking at where I was in my late teens and early 20s would never, ever, have put money on me ending up where I am now.

I work way too much, and that's impacting my satisfaction right now and my relationship with my family. It's not something that anyone is doing to me. It's inherent in the way my practice is set up. You'd think I could wrestle it to the ground, since it's my own damn practice, but it's easier said than done. Being your own boss means that your boss is always there, critical of how you spend every free hour. I have absolutely got to get this shit under control and I haven't yet.

I'm immensely satisfied with my ability to create change in the world. My practice is starting to get specialized. I'll decline to say exactly what I do or how it creates change, but let's just say I see it in very immediate terms. And sometimes it's just about taking on causes and arguments that no one else cares about, on behalf of clients in unusual circumstances, but I have already had enough success that I consider my time very well invested in what I do and I have plans to do much, much more. That's both motivating and satisfying. I was thinking about this when this very thread went sideways - the questions of "satisfaction" and also "what the fuck are people (including me) doing in this discussion thread" got unavoidably intertwined. And the answer, really, comes down to this. People think it's a good reason to go to law school if they "like to argue" and we all know how stupid that is. But there is a truth that's close to that. I like to win arguments. And I only argue about things that matter to me. I don't do it for fun. I don't even find it fun. But I derive immense satisfaction from making things better, and most often to do that you need to win an argument somewhere, with someone. I really like that - not for the argument itself, but for the change that follows.

I like the act of building something that's mine. This isn't about legal practice but about a similar, related concept I've discussed before - entrepreneurship. Being a lawyer is inherently entrepreneurial for almost everyone. For me, most than most. I believe my practice has spun in this direction in large part because it's a skill I have and an enthusiasm for me. If I were less entrepreneurial, I'd probably have sought work for someone else. Even when the work I do is relatively mundane and mechanical, the fact that I'm doing it in service of my own practice makes a big difference.

I could go on at great length, but I'm reasonably sure I'm satisfied. I'm also very restless. I'm at an age where I'm acutely aware of just how short my career will really be, and how brief my window of peak effectiveness. I want to do things. To the degree that satisfaction implies feeling peaceful, I'm really not there and probably never will be. That's a question to ask again at the very end of my career.

Anyway, hope that's something to work with.

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33 minutes ago, Diplock said:

I work way too much, and that's impacting my satisfaction right now and my relationship with my family. 

How does everyone deal with this work vs. family/personal life issue? I am especially curious about the initial years for those who entered the profession a bit later in life (I figure working crazy hours would be less of an issue if you are in your mid 20s than say, in your 30s/40s..)

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51 minutes ago, Starling said:

I worry about feeling that way one day too. Do you think you would need to leave law to find more fulfilling work? 

The grass is greener where you water it.  The underlying problem is I haven't taken enough risks, and have allowed my career to be directed by inertia.  I currently think I have more opportunities within law than outside of it.  

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7 hours ago, artsydork said:

All in all, quite pleased especially since this time in 2011 I was "fuck law and lawyering".

There is hope yet for my life in practice then. 

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Do you think that the question itself invites a form of selection bias? I’ve read stats that lawyers who are 3+ years out from being called are happier than new calls. But I’ve always wondered if that stemmed from the lawyers themselves becoming happier over time, or from the unhappy lawyers dropping out to pursue alternate options (thus leaving only the happier ones left to take the poll). Also, there is selection bias in that you’re drawing from a specific subset of lawyers (5+ year lawyers who currently browse lawstudents.ca) instead of the general lawyer population).

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I don't think OP intended for this to be a rigorous poll. I think they just wanted feedback from people in that position. Obviously there is selection bias, as there is with literally every question posted on this website, given that you're drawing from whoever posts here and not the gen pop.

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Good thread idea! I really like hearing from more senior lawyers than myself on these issues. Hopefully this thread can stay on topic and be a useful resource for people.

I am still junior lawyer, but at the point where things are starting to feel a bit less daunting. I am a 2nd year call and will start my 3rd year of practice in September 2019. 

My compensation is adequate but leaves me wanting more. I make 75k at a litigation shop just outside of downtown Toronto. No bonus. Not a bad salary by any means in the abstract. But towards the lower end of the market range, I feel. Perhaps I am just entitled. But when you see your friends with just a BA making more than you by essentially lucking into public sector jobs with equal or better compensation (plus pension, benefits, and no stress or student loans...) it is a bit frustrating. I suspect my long term income potential as a lawyer exceeds theirs, however. 

The trade off for what I perceive as lower-range compensation, however, is that my hours are great. Busy periods exist, but I very rarely work weekends, and most nights I am home between 530 and 630 pm. The few times I do need to work late see me leaving at 8 or 9 pm. Not 11pm or later. I am treated with respect at work and have great colleagues. My old firm was a Bay Street boutique where the money was great, but the hours were soul sucking and the environment was toxic to the point of almost being abusive (the shop has developed quite a reputation in the legal community). I am 10x happier now, despite the lower salary. 

I enjoy the work, but feel my new boss doesn't give me enough responsibility. The work I receive now is similar to what I received as a fresh call at my old firm. In some sense, I feel I have taken a step back. But I also hope this is somewhat just a function of being the new guy and naturally needing to develop trust, establish a reputation, etc before being give lots of files to run with as a junior. I have already noticed some better responsibilities coming my way in the past months.

So, I am somewhat satisfied for now. Things are certainly good but they could also be better.  If my salary and responsibilities grow with time, I'll be quite happy. But leaving the lock step system, I have no idea if I can necessarily rely on the former. You can always switch firms for a raise, but I don't want to seem like a firm hopper. And landing in a great work environment after coming from a poor one, I am cognizant that the grass might not always be greener, even with a higher salary. 

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6 minutes ago, happydude said:

 The trade off for what I perceive as lower-range compensation, however, is that my hours are great. Busy periods exist, but I very rarely work weekends, and most nights I am home between 530 and 630 pm. The few times I do need to work late see me leaving at 8 or 9 pm. Not 11pm or later. I am treated with respect at work and have great colleagues. My old firm was a Bay Street boutique where the money was great, but the hours were soul sucking and the environment was toxic to the point of almost being abusive (the shop has developed quite a reputation in the legal community). I am 10x happier now, despite the lower salary. 

 

Thanks for sharing. This sounds really great. I would take a 70k job where I enjoy going to work and am treated with respect than start out making 2x that in a toxic environment with soul sucking hours that rob me of my life. Earning potential is good and $$ will come with time and experience.. I don't think anyone here has to worry about that. But the other things in my life (health, gf etc)  I might lose and never get em back!

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