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HarveySpecterr

What would you do in my situation?

Help choose my future!   

46 members have voted

  1. 1. What program would you choose as your pre law-school degree?

    • Queens Bachelor of Arts (Econ) (chance of switching into commerce)
      10
    • York Schulich School of Business (BBA)
      15
    • Laurier BBA
      7
    • McMaster Commerce
      2
    • Ivey AEO
      12


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Posted (edited)

I need your opinion on where I should go to school next year.  I would appreciate your feedback greatly!

Programs accepted into: 

Schulich BBA 

Laurier BBA

McMaster Commerce

Queens Bachelor of Arts Honours (Econ)

 

Waiting on:

Western Ivey AEO

 

Please take into consideration: 

-GPA attainability (I'll put in the work, but some schools may mark easier than others)

-Cost

-Reputation

-Employability if I for whatever reason don't get into law school 

-Student life

Thanks a lot!

Edited by HarveySpecterr

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There are no bad choices on that list, assuming business is what you want to do. You know your personal factors better than we do. So weigh the cost and student life and rep yourself. No school will advantage you in your law admissions, so decide on grounds that matter to you. 

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Ivey AEO is a largely meaningless designation and is mainly used to draw potential students to Western. It lowers the standards but does not guarantee a spot and many AEO students do not make it to Ivey.  Just providing some perspective as many AEO students entering first year hold this belief and are disappointed. Im sure you will do great wherever you end up :)

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Posted (edited)

As someone from Northern Ontario who plans to pursue a BBA in Accounting before going to law school myself, I've done quite a bit of research on this. The one thing I would have told you months ago is to keep in mind that, if the distance isn't an issue for you, Beedie at Simon Fraser University and Sauder at UBC both have excellent reputations as well (10th and 1st respectively on 2019 Maclean's rankings), and tuition is cheaper in BC than in Ontario (~$8920 and ~$9840 for 2019-20, respectively). Given you've only really applied in Southern Ontario though, I'll give you a breakdown of the schools you've chosen from my perspective. I've linked the Maclean's 2019 Business School Ranking below, but keep in mind that it's not an absolutely definitive reference, and that their rankings are largely based on MBA programs rather than BBAs.

Schulich (York)
- Ranked 1st among your selections by Maclean's (3rd overall)
- Tuition and fees: $11,603.70 (2018-19) {ranks 2nd in cost}
- Does not offer co-op

Lazaridis (Laurier)
- Ranked last (5th) among your selections by Maclean's (18th overall)
- Tuition and fees: $10,654.09 (2018-19) {ranks 1st in cost}
- Offers co-op

DeGroote (McMaster)
- Ranked 4th among your selections by Maclean's (9th overall)
- Tuition and fees: $11,816.45 (2018-19) {ranks 3rd in cost}
- Does not appear to offer undergrad co-op

Smith (Queen's)
- Ranked 3rd among your selections by Maclean's (7th overall)
- Tuition and fees: $19,458.60 (2018-19) {ranks 4th in cost}
- Does not appear to offer undergrad co-op

Ivey (Western)
- Ranked 2nd among your selections by Maclean's (5th overall)
- Tuition and fees: $19,025.95* (2018-19) {ranks last (5th) in cost}
- Does not offer co-op
* - average based on $8262.45 1st year tuition and $29,789.45 1st year business (3rd year) tuition

Based on a combination of cost and reputation, I'd personally rank these schools as follows: 1) Schulich; 2) Lazaridis; 3) DeGroote; 4) Smith; 5) Ivey. I've ranked Lazaridis ahead of DeGroote because of the BBA vs the BComm, otherwise, I'd swap their rankings. If you were to decide to pursue a professional designation such as a CPA, the BBA can help give you advanced standing. If you want co-op, Lazaridis appears to be your only option in that regard, but the rest appear to have internship programs, so it's really a matter of preference there. This also assumes that you're not factoring proximity to home, which could change the rankings some for you.

https://www.macleans.ca/education/best-business-universities-in-canada-2019-ranking/

Edited by Al2790
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20 minutes ago, Al2790 said:

As someone from Northern Ontario who plans to pursue a BBA in Accounting before going to law school myself, I've done quite a bit of research on this. The one thing I would have told you months ago is to keep in mind that, if the distance isn't an issue for you, Beedie at Simon Fraser University and Sauder at UBC both have excellent reputations as well (10th and 1st respectively on 2019 Maclean's rankings), and tuition is cheaper in BC than in Ontario (~$8920 and ~$9840 for 2019-20, respectively). Given you've only really applied in Southern Ontario though, I'll give you a breakdown of the schools you've chosen from my perspective. I've linked the Maclean's 2019 Business School Ranking below, but keep in mind that it's not an absolutely definitive reference, and that their rankings are largely based on MBA programs rather than BBAs.

 

UBC Sauder is extremely difficult from what I've heard, it is very difficult to attain a high GPA there compared to other business schools. I would avoid it if law school is the endgame. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Prospero said:

UBC Sauder is extremely difficult from what I've heard, it is very difficult to attain a high GPA there compared to other business schools. I would avoid it if law school is the endgame. 

Fair enough. Personally, my plan was Beedie anyway, as I'm thinking of Allard Law at UBC, and I've heard that multiple degrees from the same university is generally not as well received as one each from multiple institutions. Plus, the lower tuition is a bonus. On top of that, I'll be starting my BBA at Kwantlen because as a mature student with poor high school grades, it was the best option as far as admission goes, and the transfer over to Beedie appears to be the easier transition.

Edited by Al2790

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4 minutes ago, Al2790 said:

Fair enough. Personally, my plan was Beedie anyway, as I'm thinking of Allard Law at UBC, and I've heard that multiple degrees from the same university is generally not as well received as one each from multiple institutions. Plus, the lower tuition is a bonus. On top of that, I'll be starting my BBA at Kwantlen because as a mature student with poor high school grades, it was the best option as far as admission goes, and the transfer over to Beedie appears to be the easier transition.

Whoever told you this is out of their mind.

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Posted (edited)

If you want to attend UBC, you should be aware of the impact that SFU's grading system could have on your chances of admission at UBC. On some occasions, the combination of SFU's unusually high percentage grade thresholds and UBC's GPA conversion system can really hurt otherwise excellent applicants.

You won't be able to predict that impact with any real certainty right now, but do look into it if you decide to attend SFU. 

Edited by Tagger
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1 minute ago, Tagger said:

If you want to attend UBC, you should be aware of the impact that SFU's grading system could have on your chances of admission at the former. On some occasions, the combination of SFU's unusually high percentage grade thresholds and UBC's GPA conversion system can really hurt otherwise excellent applicants.

You won't be able to predict that impact with any real certainty right now, but do some research and keep it in the back of your mind if you do decide to attend SFU. 

Good to know. I do feel like we're starting to highjack the OP's thread now, though. 🤣

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Al2790 said:

Fair enough. Personally, my plan was Beedie anyway, as I'm thinking of Allard Law at UBC, and I've heard that multiple degrees from the same university is generally not as well received as one each from multiple institutions. Plus, the lower tuition is a bonus. On top of that, I'll be starting my BBA at Kwantlen because as a mature student with poor high school grades, it was the best option as far as admission goes, and the transfer over to Beedie appears to be the easier transition.

For the love of God, please do not go to SFU. There are so many disadvantages that I can name in terms of getting into law or other grad schools. Long story short, your GPA will get absolutely fucked. I won't get into it here but you can message me if you would like. I am in Beedie right now and if I wasn't so far along then I would without a doubt transfer elsewhere. 

Edited by strugglingSFUgal

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1 hour ago, Prospero said:

UBC Sauder is extremely difficult from what I've heard, it is very difficult to attain a high GPA there compared to other business schools. I would avoid it if law school is the endgame. 

I graduated from Sauder's Accounting program and it's not difficult to get an A- but difficult to get anything above that. I don't know how the grading curve compares to other business schools though as I only attended Sauder. FYI, there is a heavy push to get into the Big 4 and sometimes you feel like you have to defend your decisions if you plan on doing anything else. 

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A few things regarding Western. First of all, Ivey AEO is NOT a program. AEO stands for Advanced Entry Option. What this mean, is that at the end of your second year - after pursuing a separate degree of your choice - you have an improved chance of being accepted into the HBA program at Ivey.

Essentially, for the first two years of your undergrad, you study whatever you want. Many people do bmos, political science, and even general science. What I generally hear is two things about your first degree; 1) study something that you are interested in, or 2) study something that offers a return on your investment (grad school chances, employability, etc.) in the off-chance that you are not accepted into the HBA program.

For these two years, you are required to maintain an 80 average, I believe, and any failure to do so will see your AEO revoked. If you successfully maintain that average as well as diverse ECS, your 80 will be more competitive than a non-AEO's 83. Essentially, AEO just lowers the admissions standards and puts your application at the top of the stack for the HBA program.

The HBA program is two years long, allowing you to finish in four years (or five if you would like to complete your original degree as well). It ranks extremely high in Canada (and the world I believe) and is a very sought after degree. What is VERY great about the HBA program is that after HBA1, you can apply to Western Law for a Joint HBA/JD.

Again, just like having AEO, admission standards are much more relaxed. Since HBA is naturally curved to an 80 (which is about the requirement for the HBA/JD program) so all you really need to do is not flunk out and score well on your LSAT. More information can be found on the official webpage. So, if you really want two powerful degrees which are comparable to an MBA/JD I would say go for it. Otherwise, the HBA program is great on its own. 

What I will warn you is that although this may be very straight forward - do well in your first two years, enter HBA1 after your second year, apply for HBA/JD after HBA1 and receive an HBA and a JD at the end of your time - it is extremely costly. So you have to factor that in and figure out what you truly want. I did 4 years of an undergrad and will be attending law school. My buddy did 2 years of an undergrad and is now in the joint HBA program. He is spending worlds more money than I am but it suits his interests and law was sort of an after-thought for him. 

I think in the end you will spend 6 years? 2 for your BA, 2 for HBA and 3 for JD (your first year of law begins after HBA1 and then you resume HBA2 and 2L at the same time). So, my last thing to say is - what do you want to get out of your undergrad? Is it a stepping stone or is it something to possibly be a stand-alone degree?

 

Source: I attended Western and have many friends in the HBA and HBA/JD program.

 

~ all of this is just to keep you informed because a lot of people enter the AEO stream thinking they are already in Ivey ~

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9 hours ago, Al2790 said:

Fair enough. Personally, my plan was Beedie anyway, as I'm thinking of Allard Law at UBC, and I've heard that multiple degrees from the same university is generally not as well received as one each from multiple institutions.

I've heard this is an old school thing and nobody really cares anymore.

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11 hours ago, Al2790 said:

Fair enough. Personally, my plan was Beedie anyway, as I'm thinking of Allard Law at UBC, and I've heard that multiple degrees from the same university is generally not as well received as one each from multiple institutions. Plus, the lower tuition is a bonus. On top of that, I'll be starting my BBA at Kwantlen because as a mature student with poor high school grades, it was the best option as far as admission goes, and the transfer over to Beedie appears to be the easier transition.

My understanding is that this only applies in the context of graduate programs, not professional programs. If you do an undergrad history degree at a university, and then go on to do a history master's program at the same university, you'll probably be working with the same or similar faculty members, and I understand that it's better to work with a wider variety of faculty in the graduate context. The same considerations wouldn't apply to doing something like law or med school at the same university where you did your undergrad.

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12 hours ago, Al2790 said:

Fair enough. Personally, my plan was Beedie anyway, as I'm thinking of Allard Law at UBC, and I've heard that multiple degrees from the same university is generally not as well received as one each from multiple institutions. Plus, the lower tuition is a bonus. On top of that, I'll be starting my BBA at Kwantlen because as a mature student with poor high school grades, it was the best option as far as admission goes, and the transfer over to Beedie appears to be the easier transition.

Yeah, @barelylegal is right - this is may only have an impact in a grad school context. Even in that context it still may not have an impact on future opportunities. Usually it's evaluated during post-doc applications, and even then it's a soft factor. If you ended up working with a rock star geneticist in your undergrad and just kept the M.Sc and Ph.D positions with that rock star, you published a lot in high impact journal etc. it won't hold you back when you're looking for post-doc spots. If you ended up with a mediocre M.Sc supervisor at the same school you did your undergrad in and then just stuck with that same supervisor for your PhD - it could be viewed negatively. 

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12 hours ago, Tagger said:

If you want to attend UBC, you should be aware of the impact that SFU's grading system could have on your chances of admission at UBC. On some occasions, the combination of SFU's unusually high percentage grade thresholds and UBC's GPA conversion system can really hurt otherwise excellent applicants.

You won't be able to predict that impact with any real certainty right now, but do look into it if you decide to attend SFU. 

This wound up being an issue for me when I applied, even with respect to OLSAS schools. IIRC, an A- at SFU was considered a 3.7 on the OLSAS scale. However, at least in my department at the time, the threshold for awarding an A- was 86. Not sure if things have changed, but perhaps something to be aware of. 

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:03 PM, Rashabon said:

Whoever told you this is out of their mind.

No. It's true about doing BA + MA + PhD at the same institution. Even then, though, if you changes labs/ departments, you end up getting the wider exposure. 

I agree it's meaningless if it's any degree coupled with a law degree.

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On 5/10/2019 at 8:52 AM, spicyfoodftw said:

This wound up being an issue for me when I applied, even with respect to OLSAS schools. IIRC, an A- at SFU was considered a 3.7 on the OLSAS scale. However, at least in my department at the time, the threshold for awarding an A- was 86. Not sure if things have changed, but perhaps something to be aware of. 

This is still basically true. It sucks

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My dude you are a highschool on a law students forum and asking for 1st Year UG recommendations. You should choose the right program not based on how you will be as a law applicant; and shouldn't even think about this question this early. I guess you'll grow into it during the next four years; but this kind of post and that username reeks of gunnerism.

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
On 5/9/2019 at 10:29 PM, Al2790 said:

As someone from Northern Ontario who plans to pursue a BBA in Accounting before going to law school myself, I've done quite a bit of research on this. The one thing I would have told you months ago is to keep in mind that, if the distance isn't an issue for you, Beedie at Simon Fraser University and Sauder at UBC both have excellent reputations as well (10th and 1st respectively on 2019 Maclean's rankings), and tuition is cheaper in BC than in Ontario (~$8920 and ~$9840 for 2019-20, respectively). Given you've only really applied in Southern Ontario though, I'll give you a breakdown of the schools you've chosen from my perspective. I've linked the Maclean's 2019 Business School Ranking below, but keep in mind that it's not an absolutely definitive reference, and that their rankings are largely based on MBA programs rather than BBAs.

https://www.macleans.ca/education/best-business-universities-in-canada-2019-ranking/

MacLeans is kind of useless as a basis for how employable you are or what you learn and so-on. Canadian schools are rarely if ever tiered the same way American ones are. These metrics were also built upon Faculty strength and citations which do not matter for undergrads generally. UofT/Sauders/Schulich are all grad-heavy and these do not play into UG strength so much but they are all still probably fantastic schools. 

I wouldn't really give these rankings much thought either; you'd also want to look into how you'd enjoy the schools; the kinds of unrelated or related experience available; your peers and so-on. I use to live near WLU for example and in the last 5 years it has turned into a full blown a party school and much less academic and way more into weekday drinking then McMaster. Students are way less serious outside of Lazaridis and seem way less mature and way more bro-ish than the kids at Mac. 

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A gunner is better than all the people who slack off in undergrad and then suddenly wake up to their low GPAs in fourth year and panic about needing 175 on the LSAT.

Agreed about the Harvey Specters - why are there so flipping many of them?

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