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wtamow

How do I get a job?

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6 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

I had my suspicions that OP wasn't in the Windsor dual, because an average student from that program wouldn't get multiple 2L interviews, let alone 1L.

At least I hope they wouldn't. Otherwise I have zero faith in employers accurately measuring talent.

I am likely going into the Windsor Dual, and just wondering if you could expand on this. Do Windsor Dual students have a rough time getting summer placements even if they get good grades?  What is considered an average student? 

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6 hours ago, harveyspecter993 said:

Wow, that sounds incredibly unprofessional of the interviewers.

It's truly unbelievable. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, IWantJD said:

I am likely going into the Windsor Dual, and just wondering if you could expand on this. Do Windsor Dual students have a rough time getting summer placements even if they get good grades?  What is considered an average student? 

Let's put it this way:

You will have to battle off the stereotype that you are in that program because you couldn't get into a regular Canadian law program. So you're starting at a disadvantage.

Good grades will help. But good grades are needed from pretty much every Canadian school to get interviews, with certain schools having firms go deeper into the classes because of the stronger student population going in. 

So you need to do more well than those students in other programs, relative to your own program. 

Now I can't comment how Windsor dual students do generally - I have no idea. But on aggregate, any student from that program is likely to have a tougher time getting employment than any student from any other program - all else equal.

Edit to add: we're talking about formal recruits obviously.

Edited by pzabbythesecond

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14 hours ago, providence said:

Re: “fit” - make sure you’re really reading your interviewers. Don’t just get swept along with them being friendly and nice and you just going with the flow being nice back and thinking everything is great because they’re being friendly. Do your homework on the firm, ask relevant and interesting questions, have interesting things about yourself to talk about that are not law- or school-related, ask them about themselves. Your grades get you in the door (so they must be good enough, or sufficiently counteracted by other things in your resume) but everything else seals the deal after that. 

What kind of questions would you consider interesting? I often ask about how their firm is like, how the people are...etc., but the answers all sound pretty similar no matter which firm the lawyer is with. But then if I ask about their work specifically, I would usually be standing there like a potato because I don't fully understand their field of work. 

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1 minute ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Let's put it this way:

You will have to battle off the stereotype that you are in that program because you couldn't get into a regular Canadian law program. So you're starting at a disadvantage.

Good grades will help. But good grades are needed from pretty much every Canadian school to get interviews, with certain schools having firms go deeper into the classes because of the stronger student population going in. 

So you need to do more well than those students in other programs, relative to your own program. 

Now I can't comment how Windsor dual students do generally - I have no idea. But on aggregate, any student from that program is likely to have a tougher time getting employment than any student from any other program - all else equal.

Edit to add: we're talking about formal recruits obviously.

18% of Windsor students got jobs in the most recent 2L recruit. Exactly 2 students got jobs in the most recent 1L recruit. 

While Windsor students can provide more detail, I would be surprised if being in the dual program really hurts. Your grades are still from the full Windsor class and by understanding is that 1L is exactly the same. My guess is the grades from Detroit Mercy or whatever are just ignored, so when students apply in the recruit after their second year (1 in Windsor, one in Detroit) they end up treated the same. 

I would also add that while Windsor students are not particularly competitive, going to Windsor is leaps better than going to a foreign law school (Bond, Leicester, etc) in terms of your legal career in Canada. 

As well, it is important to emphasize that not getting a job in the 1L / 2L recruits does not mean you won't get an articling position. It just means it is a tough road to get a job on Bay Street, and get some of the more competitive government positions. It's not like 80% of Windsor grads are unemployed after 3L. 

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As for OP: if you are in the middle of your class in Toronto you will get a job. Like, 99% of the class gets jobs. 

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2 minutes ago, Ambit said:

18% of Windsor students got jobs in the most recent 2L recruit. Exactly 2 students got jobs in the most recent 1L recruit. 

While Windsor students can provide more detail, I would be surprised if being in the dual program really hurts. Your grades are still from the full Windsor class and by understanding is that 1L is exactly the same. My guess is the grades from Detroit Mercy or whatever are just ignored, so when students apply in the recruit after their second year (1 in Windsor, one in Detroit) they end up treated the same. 

I would also add that while Windsor students are not particularly competitive, going to Windsor is leaps better than going to a foreign law school (Bond, Leicester, etc) in terms of your legal career in Canada. 

As well, it is important to emphasize that not getting a job in the 1L / 2L recruits does not mean you won't get an articling position. It just means it is a tough road to get a job on Bay Street, and get some of the more competitive government positions. It's not like 80% of Windsor grads are unemployed after 3L. 

Which is why I said I don't know how Windsor students do generally. I would still wager they struggle more than other law schools, because the entering statistics really are just that weak. I'm not going to sugar coat it.

I would be extremely surprised if employers didn't take the time to differentiate between single JD and dual JD kids. I would also be surprised if Windsor put those two cohorts in the same classes, on the same curve (though admittedly I don't know).

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Which is why I said I don't know how Windsor students do generally. I would still wager they struggle more than other law schools, because the entering statistics really are just that weak. I'm not going to sugar coat it.

I would be extremely surprised if employers didn't take the time to differentiate between single JD and dual JD kids. I would also be surprised if Windsor put those two cohorts in the same classes, on the same curve (though admittedly I don't know).

http://www.uwindsor.ca/law/547/dual-jd-course-study

On further review, you are correct. Most of the first year courses look like they are dual specific. 

In that case, yes, I would guess the program is less competitive in terms of securing jobs in the formal recruits, given that the admission statistics are so low. 

Edited by Ambit

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On 4/22/2019 at 6:46 AM, wtamow said:

I’ll be honest to say that I went to law school to find work, not for some burning desire to spend $150k studying legal theory and philosophy. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but I have a lot of student debt and do not have a wealthy family to help me out.

 

I just finished my 1L year (in a dual degree and I haven’t been able to find a job for this summer. I know people say that it’s fine and it’ll come in 2L, but I’ve been through five interviews this year, two in the formal recruit and three outside of the formal recruit. Prior to receiving these interviews I thought my grades might be the problem (they are on the average side and I’m a bit of a splitter, but nothing less than a B) but now I’m not so sure. These were my first interviews and I felt fine leaving 4/5 of them. I was actually really confident about two and really liked the environment and the people I met. 

So how do I figure out what’s wrong with me? I’ll start by saying I’m not the most likeable person on the planet, but I try really hard and once people get to know me they definitely keep me around. How do I know if I’m interviewing well? How do I learn? I’ve been to mock interviews and it’s always different during the real thing. 

I really feel like I’m going somewhere wrong and I feel like it’ll hold me back in the 2L recruit and onwards. If I didn’t strike out five times I’d probably have a lot more confidence going into the 2L recruit because my logic defaults to “not everyone gets a 1L job” but because I’m getting all these interviews and then striking out, I feel nervous and confused.

 

This has been contributing a great deal of excess stress to my life and has negatively affected my mental health because I feel like something inherently wrong is keeping me from landing a job, and I am beginning to feel like law school was a mistake. I hope I’m overreacting. My plan for this summer was to learn how to interview well and work on my physical presentation a bit more, but I don’t know where to start wrt to interviews. Interviewers always seem super friendly and just default to “fit” or “lots of candidates” when letting me down. I assume this is the standard response.

I'm lazy and on cough medicine that increases my ADHD so I appologize if someone has already suggested this:


if you have done 5 interviews and think you might be screwing them up, have you asked for feedback from the interviewers?

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It has been hard to keep up with this thread on mobile, but I just wanted to say thanks for all the feedback. I want to try to interview better and I do feel like I want to get to know the person interviewing me and I am interested in them and their work, but I find it difficult to convey that in a convincing way while still being relatable and relaxed. I think it comes second nature to some people, whereas for others it’s a lot harder to be “natural” in an interview. 

 

1 hour ago, kurrika said:

I'm lazy and on cough medicine that increases my ADHD so I appologize if someone has already suggested this:


if you have done 5 interviews and think you might be screwing them up, have you asked for feedback from the interviewers?

I’ve asked and it usually is “we have interviewed a lot of candidates” or something about fit. I realize there are lots of other great candidates out there, but I’d like to become more memorable. I’m hoping that for the 2L and articling recruit I can figure out exactly what I need to work on and improve. My biggest fear right now is going through other recruits and running into the same problems and not being hired at that point either. I think I’m going to talk to the counsellors from my school and see what they think or if I’m missing anything. 

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2 hours ago, harveyspecter993 said:

I think I'm missing the joke here. Is this sarcasm?

Providence is to lawstudents.ca what Cersei is to Game of Thrones. 

I personally have never felt comfortable at interviews but eventually landed at a great firm for articles. You don't need to compete with everyone, just keep doing your best. 

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Speaking as one, employers distinguish between the single versus dual. 

I had real difficulty with the dual transcripts. No indication of how much Canadian versus American Law was in each course. And it mattered. 

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Stopped reading at "5 interviews". 

 

Buckle up. And work on your resilience. You'll need much thicker skin for practice. 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Mal said:

Providence is to lawstudents.ca what Cersei is to Game of Thrones. 

Oooh, who am I? Also, fun thread idea. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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12 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Oooh, who am I? Also, fun thread idea. 

Lionel Hutz? ;)

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13 minutes ago, Ryn said:

Lionel Hutz? ;)

Mixing metaphors, I see. 

I’m incredibly offended. Just because I could totally pull off a powder blue suit does not mean I would have the poor taste to do so. 

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10 hours ago, wtamow said:

It has been hard to keep up with this thread on mobile, but I just wanted to say thanks for all the feedback. I want to try to interview better and I do feel like I want to get to know the person interviewing me and I am interested in them and their work, but I find it difficult to convey that in a convincing way while still being relatable and relaxed. I think it comes second nature to some people, whereas for others it’s a lot harder to be “natural” in an interview. 

 

Part of it is just relaxing and being able to show who you really are (as a person). Believe it or not, you are improving with each interview. My first interviews were train wrecks compared to the more recent ones. 

Employers want to see genuine enthusiasm for their firm. They want to see genuine enthusiasm for their work. Go the extra mile. Look up the cases their lawyers have recently argued (if you're going into litigation). Look up how their business model works - this is important; firms are all businesses and you should know how you're going to get paid and build a practice. Look at emerging issues or areas of law they're probably looking at as well. Go network, for a really good way to get answers to some of these questions, and to demonstrate that you really want to work somewhere or in a particular area of law. Don't just do a cursory Google search prior to an interview. 

Pick out some things that really fascinate you from the above - be able to speak and ask questions about it. Do some practice interviews if your school offers them; another student or career advisor might be able to tell you if you're talking too fast, interrupting, doing something annoying, verbal tics, etc. 

This is hard work. And you're going to get out of it what you put in. Don't expect it to just fall into your lap. Until you've done all of these things, and maybe done a couple dozen more interviews, maybe you will begin to have a leg to stand on complaining about how nobody will hire you and it's the end of the world. 

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On 4/22/2019 at 9:46 AM, wtamow said:

I’ll be honest to say that I went to law school to find work, not for some burning desire to spend $150k studying legal theory and philosophy. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but I have a lot of student debt and do not have a wealthy family to help me out.

 

I just finished my 1L year (in a dual degree and I haven’t been able to find a job for this summer. I know people say that it’s fine and it’ll come in 2L, but I’ve been through five interviews this year, two in the formal recruit and three outside of the formal recruit. Prior to receiving these interviews I thought my grades might be the problem (they are on the average side and I’m a bit of a splitter, but nothing less than a B) but now I’m not so sure. These were my first interviews and I felt fine leaving 4/5 of them. I was actually really confident about two and really liked the environment and the people I met. 

So how do I figure out what’s wrong with me? I’ll start by saying I’m not the most likeable person on the planet, but I try really hard and once people get to know me they definitely keep me around. How do I know if I’m interviewing well? How do I learn? I’ve been to mock interviews and it’s always different during the real thing. 

I really feel like I’m going somewhere wrong and I feel like it’ll hold me back in the 2L recruit and onwards. If I didn’t strike out five times I’d probably have a lot more confidence going into the 2L recruit because my logic defaults to “not everyone gets a 1L job” but because I’m getting all these interviews and then striking out, I feel nervous and confused.

 

This has been contributing a great deal of excess stress to my life and has negatively affected my mental health because I feel like something inherently wrong is keeping me from landing a job, and I am beginning to feel like law school was a mistake. I hope I’m overreacting. My plan for this summer was to learn how to interview well and work on my physical presentation a bit more, but I don’t know where to start wrt to interviews. Interviewers always seem super friendly and just default to “fit” or “lots of candidates” when letting me down. I assume this is the standard response.

Sounds like you're in the Windsor Dual Program. I would take a look at the externships in the US. Great great opportunity to gain meaningful experience and beef up your resume. Also look out for any clinic and Law Review opportunities. 

At the same time work hard to keep your GPA as high as possible. Those things in conjunction + applying broadly come 2L summer jobs/articling will help you land something. Just be open minded, and don't feel down if you don't land a bay street oci. Law school will be pushing that on you but there's a million opportunities outside of the seven sisters. That said if you do land something on Bay Street it would be a great learning opportunity for a few years, make serious coin, and once you feel the burn out coming you can take your experience and book of business elsewhere.

TL;DR - study hard, get hands on experience, and apply as broadly as you can for 2L and articling positions. 

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