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GreysAnatomy

How much does a lawyer outside of Bay Street make?

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I know this varies GREATLY in reality. But how much does an associate or partner make at a well-established litigation boutique compared to a Bay street big firm associate or partner? How does this compare to someone working on their own (like Froese Law in Toronto)?

Thanks!

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1 hour ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Doing what law?

General litigation? IP matters? Does it really vary from one to another?

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27 minutes ago, GreysAnatomy said:

General litigation? IP matters? Does it really vary from one to another?

Yes. Doing large scale PI differs immensely from largely probono immigration and/or crim defence, for example.

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14 hours ago, GreysAnatomy said:

General litigation? IP matters? Does it really vary from one to another?

 

14 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Yes. Doing large scale PI differs immensely from largely probono immigration and/or crim defence, for example.

And doing IP is very different from doing PI. 

Off-Bay IP usually pays the same as On-Bay IP. 

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7 minutes ago, TheScientist101 said:

 

And doing IP is very different from doing PI. 

Off-Bay IP usually pays the same as On-Bay IP. 

For sure, I didn't just accidentally mix up the ordering of the letters. It just goes to prove my point more.

As far as I've understood it, off or on bay IP are similarly competitive to get, and require similar work hours, etc? That's what I've heard though 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, GreysAnatomy said:

I know this varies GREATLY in reality. But how much does an associate or partner make at a well-established litigation boutique compared to a Bay street big firm associate or partner? How does this compare to someone working on their own (like Froese Law in Toronto)?

Thanks!

https://www.zsa.ca/salary-guide/

Most people would say this ZSA guide is broadly accurate

Edited by OzStudent

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I think that the ZSA salary guide skews high. ZSA wants to encourage people to switch jobs and so may have a bias to report higher salaries. Also, lawyers are less likely to voluntarily report low salaries than high ones (human nature being what it is).

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2 hours ago, Cynic said:

I think that the ZSA salary guide skews high. ZSA wants to encourage people to switch jobs and so may have a bias to report higher salaries. Also, lawyers are less likely to voluntarily report low salaries than high ones (human nature being what it is).

It skews a little low in some markets (like Edmonton)

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I am articling at a top PI litigation law firm outside of Toronto and am making 90K + a year. It depends on many different factors and what area you looking into.

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1 hour ago, AdvocateFinch said:

I am articling at a top PI litigation law firm outside of Toronto and am making 90K + a year. It depends on many different factors and what area you looking into.

Wow. You make the highest articling salary I've heard of. 

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22 hours ago, Cynic said:

I think that the ZSA salary guide skews high. ZSA wants to encourage people to switch jobs and so may have a bias to report higher salaries. Also, lawyers are less likely to voluntarily report low salaries than high ones (human nature being what it is).

I always assumed it was actually the opposite, at least for lawyers. I always figured that the lawyers who go on Glassdoor or sites like that to report their salaries, they are people who are in the earlier years of the career and are insecure or uncertain about how much they should make. Whereas more senior lawyers who are well established and making $200k/year + are less likely to go on line and try and compare salaries because they are more likely to feel like they are properly compensated and that they understand pay structures in the profession. 

Although I admit that I have no evidence for this, other than the fact that there are alot of self reported salaries on Glassdoor from lawyers at major firms who are junior associates, but barley any from senior lawyers or partners. 

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PArtners at major firms are not going to disclose their draws, and you'll note ZSA doesn't even attempt to give ranges for those.  Those numbers are guarded like Fort Knox.

Those ZSA ranges also don't apply to lawyers working on their own.  Much like a partner, they're not really being paid a salary, but simply take home whatever is left after the bills are paid, and can vary greatly from month to month.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Malicious Prosecutor said:

PArtners at major firms are not going to disclose their draws, and you'll note ZSA doesn't even attempt to give ranges for those.  Those numbers are guarded like Fort Knox.

Those ZSA ranges also don't apply to lawyers working on their own.  Much like a partner, they're not really being paid a salary, but simply take home whatever is left after the bills are paid, and can vary greatly from month to month.

Many do pay themselves salaries. And can generally forecast. 

Obvs early small business owners fluctuate in earnings. More stablr businesses know their income stream and can note trends. 

Edited by artsydork

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So how would the salaries for the following compare for an associate or partner at:

  • a top Toronto litigation boutique 
  • a Biglaw full service Bay Street firm  
  • a midsized Toronto firm
  • an IP firm
  • a PI boutique
  • Crown Counsel? 

Also, do corporate lawyers make more or less than litigation lawyers? I realize this question does not make much sense because it might be dependant on the actual work they do and the firm they work for, but I'm trying to get a general idea of what different lawyers make. The ZSA website is not very helpful TBH.

Edited by GreysAnatomy

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36 minutes ago, GreysAnatomy said:

So how would the salaries for the following compare for an associate or partner at:

  • a top Toronto litigation boutique 
  • a Biglaw full service Bay Street firm  
  • a midsized Toronto firm
  • an IP firm
  • a PI boutique
  • Crown Counsel? 

Also, do corporate lawyers make more or less than litigation lawyers? I realize this question does not make much sense because it might be dependant on the actual work they do and the firm they work for, but I'm trying to get a general idea of what different lawyers make. The ZSA website is not very helpful TBH.

The answer to this question should be pretty easily available by searching this site or NALP, but anyways, associate salary would be:

  • Same as Bay
  • Same as Bay
  • What’s midsized and what work? A 30 person shop doing Bay Street work on Adelaide and University? Same as Bay. A 10 lawyer business law practice in Mississauga? Significantly less. 
  • Same as Bay
  • Rarely salaried, to my understanding. Compensation will depend. 
  • Crown counsel salaries are publicly available. They’re lower than Bay St salaries. 
Edited by BlockedQuebecois

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On 3/14/2019 at 12:15 PM, sarstan said:

Wow. You make the highest articling salary I've heard of. 

My close friend works at a PI firm in Toronto. I won't use the word "top," because I don't believe any PI firm is a "top" firm. He tells me often about his colleague--born and raised in Canada--who couldn't even get into Bond, has scary literacy issues (flashed publicly on social media), has no grasp of the law and has never been in a courtroom. He loves waving his paycheques at everyone in the office. The guy's making $300,000 two years out. PI is a different world.

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2 hours ago, KingLouis said:

My close friend works at a PI firm in Toronto. I won't use the word "top," because I don't believe any PI firm is a "top" firm. He tells me often about his colleague--born and raised in Canada--who couldn't even get into Bond, has scary literacy issues (flashed publicly on social media), has no grasp of the law and has never been in a courtroom. He loves waving his paycheques at everyone in the office. The guy's making $300,000 two years out. PI is a different world.

Lerners isn't a "top firm"? What about McCarthy Tetrault, where the juniors almost exclusively get into court defending med mal for CMPA. Is that not a "top firm"?

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49 minutes ago, Eeee said:

Lerners isn't a "top firm"? What about McCarthy Tetrault, where the juniors almost exclusively get into court defending med mal for CMPA. Is that not a "top firm"?

Eh, I'm not sure I would really qualify med mal defence as PI work. I know it's the same thing, just the other side of the table, but when someone says PI I normally think of plaintiff work.

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