Jump to content
clevermoose

Confused [haven't hard back yet, 3.75, 165]

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Well, both of those provinces have their own schools. Students currently attending university or living in those provinces have the option to study law in their home provinces. Not to mention that students from Manitoba have the option of going next door to Ontario and students from Saskatchewan have the option of going to Alberta. I'm sure schools in the prairies have seats reserved for students from the Territories for the same reason.

I do know that when you apply to the university of Saskatchewan, they ask you about any connections you have to Saskatchewan. An important consideration when deciding which law school to go to (and when a law school decides which students to accept) is whether or not the student is likely to work in the region in which they studied. Schools like UNB are likely looking for students that will remain in the Maritimes or in Newfoundland.

Like I said, none of this is to say that you won't get in, but to me it seems like the schools are making sure they give a chance to those students who meet a certain residency criteria before they look elsewhere, especially since seats are limited, but I wouldn't say that that is an unfair criteria.

Edited by CrystalClear
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, CrystalClear said:

Well, both of those provinces have their own schools. Students currently attending university or living in those provinces have the option to study law in their home provinces. Not to mention that students from Manitoba have the option of going next door to Ontario and students from Saskatchewan have the option of going to Alberta. I'm sure schools in the prairies have seats reserved for students from the Territories for the same reason.

I do know that when you apply to the university of Saskatchewan, they ask you about any connections you have to Saskatchewan. An important consideration when deciding which law school to go to (and when a law school decides which students to accept) is whether or not the student is likely to work in the region in which they studied. Schools like UNB are likely looking for students that will remain in the Maritimes or in Newfoundland.

Even if you include Alberta with Manitoba and Saskatchewan it is 6.4 million people for 4 law schools, compared to the maritimes with 2.2 million people for 2 law schools. So there are an almost 3x as many people but only 2x as many law schools. Also if people from Manitoba can go "next door" (The closest law schools to Manitoba are not really that close, pretty much the same distance from Winnipeg to the GTA as it is from Halifax, and Ottawa and Queens are closer to the maritimes than Manitoba) to Ontario or people from Saskatchewan can do the same to Alberta why can't people from the maritimes do the same? Also the schools in the prairies do not reserve people from the territories last time I checked, so they are just straight out of luck. 

Sure schools ask, but it shouldn't be such a strong factor. It is very frustrating to see people with lower stats get in, simply because they are from the right province. Would say that is about as unfair as it gets. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, clevermoose said:

Barring hardships or personal difficulties schools shouldn't care what province you are from

I politely disagree. On an aggregate and economic level, geographic locations need a certain number of lawyers in their bar association, and I assume there is a lack of lawyers on the east coast. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like many things in life, not all these decisions are about numbers. You don't know what their ECs or references were like, so you can't say that they only got in over you because of the Maritime connection.

I suppose you're entitled to your frustration and anxiety because waiting for decisions is the pits, but the waitlist for UNB doesn't come out until July so it's not over yet.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, IrishStew said:

I politely disagree. On an aggregate and economic level, geographic locations need a certain number of lawyers in their bar association, and I assume there is a lack of lawyers on the east coast. 

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/is-dalhousie-graduating-too-many-law-students-1.2349878 I know its not a super recent source but it should be safe to say that the maritimes like most of Canada has too many lawyers, not a shortage. Not everyone from out of province will leave once they graduate anyways, just as not all locals will stay put. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, CrystalClear said:

Like many things in life, not all these decisions are about numbers. You don't know what their ECs or references were like, so you can't say that they only got in over you because of the Maritime connection.

I suppose you're entitled to your frustration and anxiety because waiting for decisions is the pits, but the waitlist for UNB doesn't come out until July so it's not over yet.

I also have what I assume (because nobody really knows) are good references and solid ECs. I am not talking about one or two points difference on the LSAT, there are applicants whole deciles worse than me with the same GPA. None of them are access or special category. Especially since I asked the school what was going on and they said they still had outstanding offers to "regional preferences" I would say its pretty much certain they got in only because they are from the area. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, clevermoose said:

Even if you include Alberta with Manitoba and Saskatchewan it is 6.4 million people for 4 law schools, compared to the maritimes with 2.2 million people for 2 law schools. So there are an almost 3x as many people but only 2x as many law schools. Also if people from Manitoba can go "next door" (The closest law schools to Manitoba are not really that close, pretty much the same distance from Winnipeg to the GTA as it is from Halifax, and Ottawa and Queens are closer to the maritimes than Manitoba) to Ontario or people from Saskatchewan can do the same to Alberta why can't people from the maritimes do the same? Also the schools in the prairies do not reserve people from the territories last time I checked, so they are just straight out of luck. 

Sure schools ask, but it shouldn't be such a strong factor. It is very frustrating to see people with lower stats get in, simply because they are from the right province. Would say that is about as unfair as it gets. 

I say the below with respect and acknowledge your good stats. I can understand that from your position things may not seem fair and waiting out for a decision you really want to hear back from really sucks. But I also say this as one of those 153 LSAT maritimers you seem to be looking down your nose at. I'm also saying this because every time someone tries to explain this to you you seem to escalate into this 'not fair' narrative.

In an earlier comment you mentioned the 153 student really shows you what UNB is looking for. I would agree in that the school is looking at factors that cannot be determined by numbers alone. I would also dare suggest that said person perhaps demonstrated other traits that the school was looking for. We do not know if they were accepted simply because they were from the maritimes.

Honestly you seem to be blaming maritimers for not leaving room for you at UNB. Why should they when you yourself stated that the main reason you wanted to go there was because of the small student body. Maritimers have been born and raised there, not to mention demonstrated some measure of loyalty to a province that has barely anything going for it (no offence to my NB brothers and sisters, but it is true).

You have been accepted to other schools and yet are totally caught up on this 'how dare they' complex directed at UNB; a school that is honestly trying its hardest to maintain the law infrastructure in the province because if they dont then you can count on no one else doing it. This is an assumption, but it seems you want to come in for 3 years to a school with only 96 seats then immediately leave, so honestly why should the school accept you ahead of a maritimer? I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed in, but I'm trying to put this into perspective, much like IrishStew and CrystalClear.

I agree that province preference isn't necessarily fair, but every professional school does it because there aren't enough schools to go around and ultimately people tend to just go back home once they are done. Each school has a duty to maintain the professional structure of the province it is in first and foremost. It may not seem fair, but it is actually an ethical principle that puts the province's health ahead of individuals' desires. If the school accepted only the highest scoring applicants then it would quickly fill its seats with people from the GTA, Montreal, etc because that is where the greatest concentrations of people are. Thus, there would be much less room for maritimers and the province could quickly be beset by hard times.

Lastly, regional preferences are certainly not "as unfair as it gets". I would argue that preferences along racial and gender lines would be far worse and have no effective basis when it came to eventual post graduation.

Edited by yolofrodo
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, yolofrodo said:

In an earlier comment you mentioned the 153 student really shows you what UNB is looking for. I would agree in that the school is looking at factors that cannot be determined by numbers alone. I would also dare suggest that said person perhaps demonstrated other traits that the school was looking for. We do not know if they were accepted simply because they were from the maritimes.

It is true that there could be other factors, but they did not say they applied discretionary. If the school is going to weight "softs" so strongly they should label themselves as a holistic school like Ottawa. 

21 minutes ago, yolofrodo said:

Honestly you seem to be blaming maritimers for not leaving room for you at UNB. Why should they when you yourself stated that the main reason you wanted to go there was because of the small student body. Maritimers have been born and raised there, not to mention demonstrated some measure of loyalty to a province that has barely anything going for it (no offence to my NB brothers and sisters, but it is true).

You have been accepted to other schools and yet are totally caught up on this 'how dare they' complex directed at UNB; a school that is honestly trying its hardest to maintain the law infrastructure in the province because if they dont then you can count on no one else doing it. This is an assumption, but it seems you want to come in for 3 years to a school with only 96 seats then immediately leave, so honestly why should the school accept you ahead of a maritimer? I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed in, but I'm trying to put this into perspective, much like IrishStew and CrystalClear.

I do not blame the students for not leaving room for me, I blame the school for not making it clear how many spots are reserved for locals, or how strongly they weight it. 

I also do not want to leave immediately after graduating, and would be perfectly happy articling or working in the region long term. If you must know my girlfriend is now in the maritimes and I thought it would be nice to be studying closer to her. I bounced around a lot as a kid so have no ties to any province or region, provided I could find a job. I doubt there are 96 new law jobs in the region every year, plus all the Dalhousie kids, so inevitably even some locals will end up leaving right after grad. 

Also not every school does it, I already brought up the law schools in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, plus I don't think BC schools reserve spots. The fact that it appears to pretty much be only a maritime thing makes it more unique and therefore more annoying. 

Why shouldn't schools primarily accept the best scoring applicants? They clearly would not only be from the GTA or big cities, there are maritimers accepted to UNB with better stats than my own, I fully recognize that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I completely agree with you, @clevermoose. Time and time again, I have seen applicants this cycle being accepted with low stats, claiming a connection to the Maritimes. For the reasons you posted above, and for many other reasons, it is NOT fair. Had I known beforehand how much value UNB & Dal place on a so-called "connection", I would not have even bothered applying at all, and saved myself the time, stress, and 200$. 

Edited by NovemberRain
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, NovemberRain said:

I completely agree with you, @clevermoose. Time and time again, I have seen applicants this cycle being accepted with low stats, claiming a connection to the Maritimes. For the reasons you posted above, and for many other reasons, it is NOT fair. Had I known beforehand how much value UNB & Dal place on a so-called "connection", I would not have even bothered applying at all, and saved myself the time, stress, and 200$. 

If both schools were more upfront about it would be a different situation and people from "away" would know better than to apply. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also really doubt why law schools such as UNB or Sask are doing such regional discriminational enrollment policy. Tbh but no offense those law schools would seem to me too childish/naiive to believe that the local applicants would be more likely to stay in their hometown for jobs after their graduations: given the average age of 20s for most of law school students, as youths who wouldn’t like to experience varieties or adventurous lives out of their own hometown, not to mention with much higher pay or better career opportunities? On the other hand, such policy may simply block any “non-local” people who truly want to settle down in the province where s/he can finish his law study.

If those schools really intend to retain grads, I may come up with a better idea: charge “regional loyalty deposits” to anyone (no matter local or out of provincial people) going to be admitted and forfeit them if anyone leaves in X years after his/her graduation without contributing local communities sufficiently — the school can specify whatever year for X above; and “contribution” can be measured by many aspects: say pro bono service hours, or simply your tax paid to local government to meet certain specified amount in such X years, or any other measures as deemed appropriately.

By implementation of such policy in place of the existing regional discriminatory policy, it seems to me at least to offer a fairer competition opportunity for each candidate no matter where you come from and help in keeping the law professionals most likely to contribute locally as those law schools wish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In determining whether UNB and Dal should lower their entrance requirements for Atlantic Canadians, the relevant question is whether (i) the region is actually underserved and (ii) whether that admissions policy will put more lawyers in the underserved regions.

On point (i) yeah, many parts of Canada are underserved. Maybe not Halifax overall, but lots of different places are starving for either general counsel or certain types of lawyers. As I understand it, the problem is attracting and retaining lawyers in rural areas and, to some extent, retaining lawyers in the cities.

The theory is basically that local candidates, are more likely to stay and work in the region. They have personal connections, emotional attachments, and for many, it is their home. Outside candidates may decide to stay, but rural practitioners I’ve talked to all seem to have a story of a student or new associate who claimed to want to settle down in Wherever Bay or Somewhere Brook and then, boom, when they got to their second year of practice and were profitable, they moved back to the city.

First of all, whether a region is underserved can’t be measured by the number of articling positions available or by quoting a couple of interviews with graduates and lawyers in Canada. Is the lower admissions thing perfect? No. As you point out, there’s still a problem with getting some of those candidates licensed – those rural, small firms and solo practitioners in underserved areas often don’t have the budgetary flexibility to train new lawyers. Would that be solved by just making less Atlantic Canadian lawyers? Also, no. I think the admissions policy probably helps on balance, and that other incentives and funding would be needed to ensure that new calls and articling students end up in the underserved areas being targeted.

The posts here are obviously self-serving. And that’s fine, everyone serves themselves. But I’m not going to pretend they’re good policy, just because you’d like a better shot at more schools. Atlantic schools and Halifax firms shouldn’t be a farm league to train future Toronto and Vancouver lawyers. We’re talking about schools supported by public funds in have-not provinces. Lets not pretend that this is some equality issue, where you’re being horribly discriminated against by UNB and Dal -- being from Ontario or somewhere is not really a ground for discrimination. But they’ve chosen to make their local legal markets a priority, and I really see nothing wrong with that.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

 We’re talking about schools supported by public funds in have-not provinces. 

If they are willing to take money from other provinces in transfer payments they should be willing to take students from out of province as well. Hell I wouldn't even mind being charged an out of province rate if you really want to help locals, but admission should be based on merit not post code. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, clevermoose said:

If they are willing to take money from other provinces in transfer payments they should be willing to take students from out of province as well. Hell I wouldn't even mind being charged an out of province rate if you really want to help locals, but admission should be based on merit not post code. 

If I had a dollar every time I heard an argument about how the Maritimes behave because of transfer payments I wouldn't even need to apply to law school. 

Also, quick LSAT practice, what must be assumed to make Clevermoose's argument correct?

A) That UNB isn't taking outside applicants.

B) Charging a higher rate for applications will help locals.

C) Where someone is from has no bearing on application merit.

D) Federal tax law is determined by one of the smallest provinces in the country.

E) All of the above.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

Lets not pretend that this is some equality issue, where you’re being horribly discriminated against by UNB and Dal -- being from Ontario or somewhere is not really a ground for discrimination. But they’ve chosen to make their local legal markets a priority, and I really see nothing wrong with that.

 

Maybe you'll start seeing something wrong with it only when and if all schools in Ontario decide to "model" their admission standards to those of UNB and Dal. This is only idealistic at best, because I can only imagine the uproar that would cause.

And the "theory" that someone would stay in the province because of sentimental values and family ties simply is not a very good one to begin with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NovemberRain said:

I completely agree with you, @clevermoose. Time and time again, I have seen applicants this cycle being accepted with low stats, claiming a connection to the Maritimes. For the reasons you posted above, and for many other reasons, it is NOT fair. Had I known beforehand how much value UNB & Dal place on a so-called "connection", I would not have even bothered applying at all, and saved myself the time, stress, and 200$. 

1 hour ago, clevermoose said:

If both schools were more upfront about it would be a different situation and people from "away" would know better than to apply. 

It's right there under the admissions categories:

"The use of a regional preference in the selection process recognizes UNB Law’s ties to the Atlantic region. It is not intended to discourage national and international applicants. On the contrary, UNB consciously fosters diversity in its student body, including geographical and cultural diversity. A number of offers are reserved for residents of New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador and Prince Edward Island. " (https://www.unb.ca/fredericton/law/admissions/first-year/admissions-categories.html)

So you can hardly be surprised that they actually put their regional preference to use.

 

51 minutes ago, huskybins said:

I also really doubt why law schools such as UNB or Sask are doing such regional discriminational enrollment policy. Tbh but no offense those law schools would seem to me too childish/naiive to believe that the local applicants would be more likely to stay in their hometown for jobs after their graduations...

I would caution the use of the word "discriminatory" in this circumstance. There may be a heavier weight placed on regional ties than other schools, but UNB is by no means exclusive. People from outside of the Maritimes have gotten admitted in the past and will continue to get admitted into the future, and I think that crying "discrimination" is a slippery slope towards diminishing the effects that actual discrimination can have on a group or a community.

EDIT: And I'd like to add, again, that there's no reason to believe the out-of-province applicants who have posted here won't be admitted. You just haven't been admitted yet. Take a step back for a few minutes and breathe.

Edited by CrystalClear
Additional thought and a typo
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, CrystalClear said:

It's right there under the admissions categories:

"The use of a regional preference in the selection process recognizes UNB Law’s ties to the Atlantic region. It is not intended to discourage national and international applicants. 

Well it has certainly discouraged at least a few national applicants. I knew they reserved spots, but if they said how many spots, or published acceptance stats for locals and non locals it would be more transparent. 

Edited by clevermoose
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, phop said:

If I had a dollar every time I heard an argument about how the Maritimes behave because of transfer payments I wouldn't even need to apply to law school. 

Also, quick LSAT practice, what must be assumed to make Clevermoose's argument correct?

A) That UNB isn't taking outside applicants.

B) Charging a higher rate for applications will help locals.

C) Where someone is from has no bearing on application merit.

D) Federal tax law is determined by one of the smallest provinces in the country.

E) All of the above.

Funny joke. 

A. They are accepting outsiders but not with the same scrutiny as locals.

B. Don't think I said applications should be more expensive. I was speaking about tution rates. If you want to attract locals have a lower tution rate for them compared to outsiders, like McGill. 

C. So you believe birthplace or current living place IS indicative of merit?

D. Didn't ever suggest new brunswick set federal tax policy.

Edited by clevermoose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@clevermoose @NovemberRain

In Ontario, Bora Laskin prefers students with a Northern Ontario connection. If you look at medical schools, Western has a preference towards SWOMEN students Northern Ontario School of Medicine prefers students who have a connection to Northern Ontario. Therefore, these practices exist in exclusive professional programs in Ontario as well.

Such admissions biases are put in place to equalize access to education and socioeconomic barriers that exist due to geography. They also exist to increase the likelihood that students will give back to an identifiably disadvantaged local community that has been perceived as being lacking in professionally-trained residents who can boost the economy and local services. Furthermore, there are spots for individuals across all universities for access, mature and Indigenous claims. Are these practice perfect equalizing policies? No, but I would argue that they help.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, NovemberRain said:

 

Maybe you'll start seeing something wrong with it only when and if all schools in Ontario decide to "model" their admission standards to those of UNB and Dal. This is only idealistic at best, because I can only imagine the uproar that would cause.

And the "theory" that someone would stay in the province because of sentimental values and family ties simply is not a very good one to begin with. 

I'm a 1L from Ontario attending Dal now. Many of my classmates are from Atlantic Canada (54%), and many of them are not from the Halifax area. If Truro or Cape Breton are dying for lawyers, who do you think is more likely to go to those regions: the person from Truro or Cape Breton, or the person from Ontario who doesn't even know where those places are?

 

2 minutes ago, HelloLawSchool said:

@clevermoose @NovemberRain

In Ontario, Bora Laskin prefers students with a Northern Ontario connection. If you look at medical schools, Western has a preference towards SWOMEN students Northern Ontario School of Medicine prefers students who have a connection to Northern Ontario. Therefore, these practices exist in exclusive professional programs in Ontario as well.

Such admissions biases are put in place to equalize access to education and socioeconomic barriers that exist due to geography. They also exist to increase the likelihood that students will give back to an identifiably disadvantaged local community that has been perceived as being lacking in professionally-trained residents who can boost the economy and local services. Furthermore, there are spots for individuals across all universities for access, mature and Indigenous claims. Are these practice perfect equalizing policies? No, but I would argue that they help.

 Well said. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



  • Recent Posts

    • Just bumping this. It is so important to have at least a base knowledge of criminal law - at the very least, family practitioners should know how to read a recognizance/undertaking, know the process to vary conditions, basic evidence (Khan applications, third party record), and a basic understanding of the more common charges (assault, assault w/weapon, mischief, threats).  The intersection between family and criminal can be fairly interesting and devestating on families. 
    • The ACORN payment site notes that payment may be made by money order or by credit card (which I would really really prefer) whereas The steps for newly admitted students says: ”$500 in Canadian currency, in the form of a certified cheque or money order only, payable to “University of Toronto”. “ anyone with any experiences here who can help me out? Can I pay by credit card?
    • Thanks a lot. Is it okay if I pm you? Guys, any idea when is the earliest one can move in? I was thinking of moving in during the summer ( assuming i pay the deposit, apply for housing and register and end up being allotted).
    • Hi guys, I’m currently a 2L student and I’m curious how law firms look at the CFA program. Anyone found it helpful in securing an article? Or does it generally help in your practice?  Thanks for all the inputs!
    • Hello! Can anyone tell me what to expect for the Public Prosecution Service of Canada's written take home exam? I got invitation to write their exam for a counsel position. 
×
×
  • Create New...