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Megbean123

Getting a bad grade in Fall 2018

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3 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Anecdotal but I know someone who got into Osgoode, got a 2.5 GPA his last semester, did very very well in 1L and is now at a high ranking NY firm. Anecdotal, but I've also never encountered an employer who would care about that in a transcript. 

Plenty of Canadian firms ask for undergrad transcripts as part of your application for an articling position, and they play a big role in getting a 1L job. They are also pretty important in applying for clerkships. 

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55 minutes ago, erinl2 said:

It may not affect admissions but it likely won't be the last time you have to provide an undergrad transcript. It would be silly to slack off now.

 

3 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Anecdotal but I know someone who got into Osgoode, got a 2.5 GPA his last semester, did very very well in 1L and is now at a high ranking NY firm. Anecdotal, but I've also never encountered an employer who would care about that in a transcript. 

I'm not familiar with the NY process, but I can confidently state that undergrad transcripts often must be submitted as part of OCI/articling job applications, and that some firms will definitely ask questions if they see notably low marks on an undergrad transcript, even where there are much higher marks on the law school transcript.

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@pzabbythesecond So I guess it's a good idea to slack off? How many employers have you encountered? Have you asked about this particular situation? As someone who is involved with hiring, and who has seen hundreds of job apps, I'm just speaking from my experience, several years in front of you in this process.

If people want to slack off, feel free. It may not make a difference but again, it may. Undergrad transcripts are also carefully reviewed during clerkship assessment.

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I mean, there's a difference between "slacking off" and getting a B+ instead of an A+ and slacking off and going from an A to a D average.

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I think that's obvious. The discussion has morphed from the OP's anxiety over a slight drop in grades, into one that is more broad.

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13 minutes ago, providence said:

they play a big role in getting a 1L job

I actually don't think that's all that true. It never came up in my interviews, and my GPA was pretty low compared to most students. Maybe the firms that didn't extend me interviews cared, but at least a good chunk of them (including what I would consider to be the top tier), didn't seem to mind. 

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11 minutes ago, Xer said:

I mean, there's a difference between "slacking off" and getting a B+ instead of an A+ and slacking off and going from an A to a D average.

Absolutely. A B+ likely wouldn't cause any concern at all. A term entirely filled with Cs and Ds (which I have seen before while interviewing) is a different story.

Edited by barelylegal
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6 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Again @erinl2 I wasn't looking to wage war. I noted my experience was both anecdotal and limited. I stand corrected.

I think OP got the idea.

I remember someone was thinking about quitting law school after getting mostly B+ and B in 1L. He/she has never get so many B+ in his/her academic life. 

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Just want to say:

I think my question gave us all a lot to discuss and probably some useful advice for future students checking out the forum. Some of the comments initially were not very nice, some people made judgments about me not fully understanding the situation and accusing me of being disrespectful. Comments like that will intimidate people from asking the questions they really want to. I think if you look at my comments you will see I wanted to know something about my particular situation.

It did turn into a fruitful discussion - about coping with anxiety, the stress of law school, what are realistically "good" and "bad" grades, genuine support and the question of grades in your final semesters of undergrad. 

We should all work together to make this forum a supportive place instead of an upsetting one. I asked my question with sincere intentions.

The first reply I got was a judgment about my character, calling me "ridiculous" and trying to infer the "type of person I am". 

That isn't helpful to anyone, and @pzabbythesecond, as well as others, showed they had the same or similar concerns, so I am not alone. I appreciate that people are applying with lower GPAs but I only know a few past applicants and not many to Ontario schools. This forum, is, perhaps, one of the only places I could get this information. I asked about myself, not to denigrate other people. I usually keep my anxiety to myself, but, I thought this might be a place where people would understand because the truth is that applying to law school is stressful and full of unknowns and uncertainties.

Some people sent me messages where they indicated that they couldn't believe some of the nastiness I got in response to a sincere question. I know that people like @erinl2, @providence, and others are sincerely trying to help and that @luckycharm who offered me some great advice in a PM was just kidding around. But some other posters here (and not only on this particular thread) can be really toxic. Especially for people already intimidated by the process. 

As I said earlier, put yourselves in the shoes of anxious undergrads feeling like their whole entire future is at stake. 

Anyway -- thanks to everyone who had something good to offer. For those who didn't, I don't think that's what the forum is for. I also don't think you're helping people because you're making them afraid to ask certain questions. I'm sure there is a student that will come here with the same or a similar concern next year and think, "wow, I'm glad I didn't ask that question here, but at least I got my answer". 

Edit: I now understand B+ is not a "bad" grade and it was a mistake to title it that

Edited by Megbean123
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On 12/3/2018 at 1:15 AM, Megbean123 said:

Yeah I mean are u trying to say there are no people with intense anxiety in the entire field of law? I get that I am neurotic and obsessive about my grades but that is what everyone makes it seem like law is all about from a-z. Like have a look at this forum it’s all about grades and objective stats and how law schools perceive you. What am I supposed to think? 

@providence yeah I know I am cracking under the pressure. Not really sure what to do about it. I mean I can’t imagine there aren’t people like me in the field of law nor who got through law school. I kind of imagine I’ll have a period where I adapt to all this stuff and it will be emotionally hard. I can’t really help who I am

I admit this might look ridiculous (and did multiple times in my post) but for a sec both of u put yourself in the position of someone not through law school reading this forum. It looks so competitive from getting in to law school to articling to actually working. This was a legitimate question and I asked it from a place of genuine concern

0L but worked in ligitgation for 7 yrs, can confirm, neurotics do become lawyers. Can personally  confirm that people who get the occasional B still get acceptance letters. You’ll be fine, you should probably get your blood pressure checked regularly, but you’ll be fine.

Edited by Harper916
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1 hour ago, Harper916 said:

0L but worked in ligitgation for 7 yrs, can confirm, neurotics do become lawyers. Can personally  confirm that people who get the occasional B still get acceptance letters. You’ll be fine, you should probably get your blood pressure checked regularly, but you’ll be fine.

Hahahahaha I like the blood pressure addition here, good advice, I actually probably should after the way this acceptance cycle has made me feel 

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On 12/6/2018 at 3:00 AM, Megbean123 said:

Just want to say:

I think my question gave us all a lot to discuss and probably some useful advice for future students checking out the forum. Some of the comments initially were not very nice, some people made judgments about me not fully understanding the situation and accusing me of being disrespectful. Comments like that will intimidate people from asking the questions they really want to. I think if you look at my comments you will see I wanted to know something about my particular situation.

It did turn into a fruitful discussion - about coping with anxiety, the stress of law school, what are realistically "good" and "bad" grades, genuine support and the question of grades in your final semesters of undergrad. 

We should all work together to make this forum a supportive place instead of an upsetting one. I asked my question with sincere intentions.

The first reply I got was a judgment about my character, calling me "ridiculous" and trying to infer the "type of person I am". 

That isn't helpful to anyone, and @pzabbythesecond, as well as others, showed they had the same or similar concerns, so I am not alone. I appreciate that people are applying with lower GPAs but I only know a few past applicants and not many to Ontario schools. This forum, is, perhaps, one of the only places I could get this information. I asked about myself, not to denigrate other people. I usually keep my anxiety to myself, but, I thought this might be a place where people would understand because the truth is that applying to law school is stressful and full of unknowns and uncertainties.

Some people sent me messages where they indicated that they couldn't believe some of the nastiness I got in response to a sincere question. I know that people like @erinl2, @providence, and others are sincerely trying to help and that @luckycharm who offered me some great advice in a PM was just kidding around. But some other posters here (and not only on this particular thread) can be really toxic. Especially for people already intimidated by the process. 

As I said earlier, put yourselves in the shoes of anxious undergrads feeling like their whole entire future is at stake. 

Anyway -- thanks to everyone who had something good to offer. For those who didn't, I don't think that's what the forum is for. I also don't think you're helping people because you're making them afraid to ask certain questions. I'm sure there is a student that will come here with the same or a similar concern next year and think, "wow, I'm glad I didn't ask that question here, but at least I got my answer". 

Edit: I now understand B+ is not a "bad" grade and it was a mistake to title it that

I couldn’t read past the first page because of all the cringe-inducing moments, so maybe I missed something key, but...

People are going to judge what you say. As soon as 1L starts, you are essentially in a job hunt. Lawyers/legal employers judge people for what they say, like any other employer. You should immediately disabuse yourself of the notion that school or anything connected to it is in any sense a judgment-free space, or that you’re entitled to a judgment-free space.

If someone is too intimidated to post on an anonymous intertronz board because of a joke about how their objectively stupid comment was stupid, I would judge them. A lawyer needs thicker skin. If this upset you that much, I would be extremely concerned about how law school* and then, far more so, practice will be for you. (*Law school is easy, requires minimal effort and is remembered by most lawyers as the most relaxed phase of their life, but my experience has been that people who find applying highly stressful find the school overwhelming.) I can assure you, there is an extremely high chance that you will work with at least one or two senior lawyers (or judges, or clients, etc.) who respond far more harshly to questions that dumb, and you will need to have that slide off your back like water so your next response is better. 

You should also learn to accept that “I have straight As and got one not A is my life now over” makes you sound both arrogant and terrifyingly unaware. I would be very worried if a junior I worked with expressed that sentiment and it would make me trust them less. 

If you find being in this thread stressful, I would strongly encourage you to view stress management as your biggest hurdle, and dismiss all concerns about B+s. 

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On 12/3/2018 at 2:15 PM, Megbean123 said:

Yeah I mean are u trying to say there are no people with intense anxiety in the entire field of law? I get that I am neurotic and obsessive about my grades but that is what everyone makes it seem like law is all about from a-z. Like have a look at this forum it’s all about grades and objective stats and how law schools perceive you. What am I supposed to think? 

@providence yeah I know I am cracking under the pressure. Not really sure what to do about it. I mean I can’t imagine there aren’t people like me in the field of law nor who got through law school. I kind of imagine I’ll have a period where I adapt to all this stuff and it will be emotionally hard. I can’t really help who I am

I admit this might look ridiculous (and did multiple times in my post) but for a sec both of u put yourself in the position of someone not through law school reading this forum. It looks so competitive from getting in to law school to articling to actually working. This was a legitimate question and I asked it from a place of genuine concern

Actually, being obsessive about pedantic levels of perfectionism to the point of discounting the clear reality surrounding you is something that makes clients complain about their lawyers. Raising outrageously uncommercial or unrealistic hypotheticals is something that makes clients complain. It’s the mark of a bad lawyer, often. Literally yesterday I told a client that I thought another counsel they were working with was not very good for exactly this reason.

Also, all of us can help who we are. Working on oneself and modulating the way you react to life’s challenges is almost the sole thing a person does from birth to the age of 20-something nowadays. For people who didn’t support themselves during undergrad or who otherwise didn’t have to give primary care to others, self-improvement is the only thing this planet has asked you to do for a fifth of a century. It’s literally the only thing you know how to do. You are very much capable of working on your anxiety, your response to stress and your reasonable expectations.

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I liked your previous post and I'm neither as harsh nor anywhere near as experienced and knowledgeable on law school or the legal profession as theycancallyouhoju, but I do agree that stress management and self-awareness are very important.

You're obviously very academically proficient given your GPA and the fact that you've gotten into a ton of law schools already this early in the cycle. But your anxiety and fears are causing you to self-sabotage. People who wouldn't have given a second thought to you beyond "wow, those are some good stats, good for them" if you'd just posted some banal questions and in the acceptance thread are giving you harsh comments and thinking less of you. I'm not saying they're right to do so, and I do get where you're coming from to some extent, but this is the reality of what's happening.

And like theycancallyouhoju says, this is something you can change. Not for the sakes of those posters or for getting a job, but for your own mental well-being. From personal experience, constantly being stressed and worried over things isn't fun. It sucks and it drains all my energy and attention, essentially creating a self-fulfilling prophecy when what I fear is not doing my best or, worse, failing entirely. Getting a B+ isn't going to wreck your chances at law school or your legal career. But being perpetually anxious about this and any other perceived failure just might chip away at the benefits you can accrue from them, both in terms of your personal capacity and others' perceptions of you.

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38 minutes ago, Xer said:

I liked your previous post and I'm neither as harsh nor anywhere near as experienced and knowledgeable on law school or the legal profession as theycancallyouhoju, but I do agree that stress management and self-awareness are very important.

You're obviously very academically proficient given your GPA and the fact that you've gotten into a ton of law schools already this early in the cycle. But your anxiety and fears are causing you to self-sabotage. People who wouldn't have given a second thought to you beyond "wow, those are some good stats, good for them" if you'd just posted some banal questions and in the acceptance thread are giving you harsh comments and thinking less of you. I'm not saying they're right to do so, and I do get where you're coming from to some extent, but this is the reality of what's happening.

And like theycancallyouhoju says, this is something you can change. Not for the sakes of those posters or for getting a job, but for your own mental well-being. From personal experience, constantly being stressed and worried over things isn't fun. It sucks and it drains all my energy and attention, essentially creating a self-fulfilling prophecy when what I fear is not doing my best or, worse, failing entirely. Getting a B+ isn't going to wreck your chances at law school or your legal career. But being perpetually anxious about this and any other perceived failure just might chip away at the benefits you can accrue from them, both in terms of your personal capacity and others' perceptions of you.

I agree in full, and not merely because I’m flattered.

When seniors tell you that the problem here is anxiety and being intimidated by light comments, it’s because we’ve seen people crash and burn for that, and never seen someone crash and burn for a B+. More than half the people I started with have now quit, most because they felt overly stressed.

I really want to emphasize this: I’ve seen very few people hate their legal career because they weren’t smart enough for it. I’ve seen many hate their legal career because of how they respond to stress.

Youre going to say stupid things in law. In school they don’t matter at all but in practice they do. We all ask stupid questions at some point. Some of us, definitely me included, sometimes say things that have inadvertent outcomes. Being able to acknowledge you can be dumb and counterproductive and you goofed without feeling intimidated will be necessary. It’s an important skill. Not being neurotic is an important skill. Yes, some lawyers act like they’re OCD and just obsess over every detail, but we don’t let them talk to clients because that mode of thinking produces bad client relationship management.

So, we’re just saying your worry is misplaced - your B+ is no concern; this degree of anxiety and intimidation is. The good news is you can work on both and become a great professional. 

 

Edited by theycancallyouhoju
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5 hours ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

I can assure you, there is an extremely high chance that you will work with at least one or two senior lawyers (or judges, or clients, etc.) who respond far more harshly to questions that dumb, and you will need to have that slide off your back like water so your next response is better. 

You should also learn to accept that “I have straight As and got one not A is my life now over” makes you sound both arrogant and terrifyingly unaware. I would be very worried if a junior I worked with expressed that sentiment and it would make me trust them less. 

First paragraph: Yes! Example: I made an argument to a judge fairly early in practice and he says:

"Ms Providence, that is a RIDICULOUS argument. Completely RIDICULOUS. Don't you work for so-and-so? Does he let you make an argument that RIDICULOUS?"

Trust me, I wanted to crawl away somewhere and cry, but I took a deep breath and said:

"Your Honour, So-and-so instructed me to advocate zealously for our client as long as the law supports us. And it does - the Supreme Court of Canada says x, y, z..."

He retired to think about it, came back, granted my application and complimented me on my excellent advocacy.

In undergrad if you're a good student, you will constantly be complimented and have your ego stroked by your profs. In law school and law practice, you will constantly feel stupid and like you don't know anything. You need to get used to this and take it as an invigorating challenge. 

I would assume that a junior whose biggest tragedy is not getting straight As does not have enough real life experience. I had straight As in undergrad, but I had so many other things going on, I didn't really worry about my grades. 

Edited by providence
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4 hours ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

Actually, being obsessive about pedantic levels of perfectionism to the point of discounting the clear reality surrounding you is something that makes clients complain about their lawyers. Raising outrageously uncommercial or unrealistic hypotheticals is something that makes clients complain. It’s the mark of a bad lawyer, often. Literally yesterday I told a client that I thought another counsel they were working with was not very good for exactly this reason.

Also, all of us can help who we are. Working on oneself and modulating the way you react to life’s challenges is almost the sole thing a person does from birth to the age of 20-something nowadays. For people who didn’t support themselves during undergrad or who otherwise didn’t have to give primary care to others, self-improvement is the only thing this planet has asked you to do for a fifth of a century. It’s literally the only thing you know how to do. You are very much capable of working on your anxiety, your response to stress and your reasonable expectations.

Yeah - being neurotic and obsessive will cause your clients to lose confidence in you in crim as well. @Megbean123 expressed an interest in family law, and those clients are similar. They are dealing with real, serious problems and are under stress, on top of whatever mental health issues they already have. You need to be reasonable and calm with them, not freaking out yourself. 

You have to work on self-improvement even if you are caring for others! I came a long way in dealing with my temper, emotions etc when I became a mother - I was so young I would never have done it otherwise at that age, but having a family made me realize I owed it to my children to work on myself so that I could be a good mother. 

Speaking of which, there are SOOOO many neurotic and obsessive and anxious people on pregnancy and parenting forums. Both my husband and I tried going to some for support during my pregnancy, and neither of us could handle being there. They were FULL of women trying to get pregnant who were having a tough time and felt entitled to it "because I've worked so hard for everything in my life, I got good grades, have a good job, have a house etc and all these women who are irresponsible get knocked up and I can't." Or they were obsessing ridiculously about what they could eat etc while they were trying, or freaking out because their temperature was too low. And then there were the ones raining on other peoples' parades when a woman was excited she was pregnant and people would tell her not to be excited because of the miscarriage rates for women their age and talking about how anxious their first trimesters make them. So not getting on top of anxiety now can impact many other things you will undertake in life, such as relationships and parenting. 

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There are 4 pages of responses and I haven't read all of them. I just have this to add: if a B+ in undergrad causes this much stress, law school might break you. I personally don't find law school to be that stressful, but it's certainly more stressful than undergrad. Couple that with the fact that getting straight As is virtually impossible thanks to bell curves, you might have an anxiety attack. Law students tend to be overachievers that have had high marks their whole lives. In law school, most of them live in the B- to B+ range.

If your grades are as high as implied, you'll get into law school. The bigger problem is keeping your anxiety under control.

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