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Chances? Mediocre GPA [3.05, 3.48]

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36 minutes ago, TheLegendof said:

7Sage for logic games (after perusing the Powerscore LG Bible) and Manhatten Prep for LR. They all use real LSAT questions. 

IMO 7Sage (the paid course) is a lot like having a tutor.

Practice tests followed by blind review, rinse and repeat. I studied > 30hr/week for several weeks.

I went from 149 (real score, February) to 160 (September). 

Congrats, that is very impressive! :) 

Thanks for advice, I'll try applying it. 

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19 minutes ago, rachelzane24 said:

I have just been doing questions and trying to figure out the answers, I deff will be taking prep course to understand the concepts but I know I have to put in 10 times more work when practicing/studying for results. I know one of the main reasons I am not getting it is because I am not reading actively as I should be. 

So far, Im tackling LR and RC. I didnt even touch LG yet, it intimidates me. I am deff open to a tutor.

Coming from a low income family, I have seen to disadvantages to access to law. I want to help positively impact a family's life and law significantly influence's an individuals life. Last year, my cousin got involved with criminal charges because he was in the wrong crowd and around bad influence. He was 17 and an irrational boy lost. He had few charges against him under the youth criminal act and my uncle comes from a low income background but he sacrificed and ensured to withdraw the charges on his son by hiring a lawyer. When I attended my cousin's hearing for moral support I was heartbroken by how many kids there were left behind with no family support. Those kids had to spend a weekend in lockup because they didn't have the financial means or moral support of a lawyer. I am not trying to be a big shot wealthy corporate lawyer, I just want to be able to live a moderate lifestyle and help anyone in need who truly neglects the means for it. I want to work for the government and help kids refresh their lives legally and mentally. One bad mistake does not summarize your life. It's one bad chapter. 

So sorry for essay but I feel law is one guaranteed path to positively shape someone's life. 

Again, the LsAT is learnable, but only to a certain extent.  Working more does not always equal a higher score.  With that said, it's worth looking into the tutor to see how much it'll help you. 

As for the other stuff, those are admirable career goals, but law school isn't the only way to achieve them.  The immediate, and probably more practical, jump in my mind is to something like social work or becoming a paralegal.  You may also find similarly fulfilling work through certain government agencies.  But I'm not the best person to ask about this because my interests lie elsewhere and I've done little if any research into jobs and job prospects there.  I'm sure you can get some great advice about alternatives if you asked around. 

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5 minutes ago, Shankar said:

Again, the LsAT is learnable, but only to a certain extent.  Working more does not always equal a higher score.  With that said, it's worth looking into the tutor to see how much it'll help you. 

As for the other stuff, those are admirable career goals, but law school isn't the only way to achieve them.  The immediate, and probably more practical, jump in my mind is to something like social work or becoming a paralegal.  You may also find similarly fulfilling work through certain government agencies.  But I'm not the best person to ask about this because my interests lie elsewhere and I've done little if any research into jobs and job prospects there.  I'm sure you can get some great advice about alternatives if you asked around. 

Ya I'll consider a tutor after my prep courses that start in end of January. I know I learn better in a classroom environment. I have never been able to teach myself something very successfully 

I've seen the options while being employed in the provincial government. I've seen social workers and client service representatives at action, it just isn't the same influence. I don't want to end law school dream. Criminal law is my second interest, immigration law is what I hope to practice in. But either way, thanks for the input and advice :) 

If you're in law school, congrats and ace those 3 years! If not, I am sure you will be admitted and become a great lawyer!

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13 minutes ago, rachelzane24 said:

I have just been doing questions and trying to figure out the answers, I deff will be taking prep course to understand the concepts but I know I have to put in 10 times more work when practicing/studying for results. I know one of the main reasons I am not getting it is because I am not reading actively as I should be. 

So far, Im tackling LR and RC. I didnt even touch LG yet, it intimidates me. I am deff open to a tutor.

Coming from a low income family, I have seen to disadvantages to access to law. I want to help positively impact a family's life and law significantly influence's an individuals life. Last year, my cousin got involved with criminal charges because he was in the wrong crowd and around bad influence. He was 17 and an irrational boy lost. He had few charges against him under the youth criminal act and my uncle comes from a low income background but he sacrificed and ensured to withdraw the charges on his son by hiring a lawyer. When I attended my cousin's hearing for moral support I was heartbroken by how many kids there were left behind with no family support. Those kids had to spend a weekend in lockup because they didn't have the financial means or moral support of a lawyer. I am not trying to be a big shot wealthy corporate lawyer, I just want to be able to live a moderate lifestyle and help anyone in need who truly neglects the means for it. I want to work for the government and help kids refresh their lives legally and mentally. One bad mistake does not summarize your life. It's one bad chapter. 

So sorry for essay but I feel law is one guaranteed path to positively shape someone's life. 

Well not to nitpick but I am a criminal lawyer so let's break this down a bit just so you have the correct information before you make all the sacrifices you propose. 

First of all, I'm not sure where you live but most parts of the country have legal aid duty counsel for people facing jail who cannot afford lawyers, and certainly for youth, so that youth who can be released from custody are released. With youth, if they have no family support, the delay in getting them released is likely because no relatives are willing to take them and child welfare doesn't have a place for them - I do youth criminal work and there are often huge problems connecting with social welfare agencies. This is a problem outside the justice system that affects kids in the system. I have spent many weekends unsuccessfully calling around trying to find someone to take a youth. 

Secondly, hiring a lawyer is unlikely to have assisted your uncle in having charges withdrawn. Charges are generally withdrawn where the Crown has no reasonable likelihood of conviction (a weak case, witnesses not cooperating, obvious Charter breaches by police) and/or there is no public interest in proceeding (e.g. charges were really minor and it would take too many resources.) A lawyer may sometimes be able to assist in pointing this out or have the Crown review the file faster, but it's generally a decision made by the Crown in accordance with its own policies. I admit that sometimes lawyers will take more credit for having charges withdrawn than we deserve. A legal aid-funded lawyer or even your cousin being self-represented likely would have got the same result and your uncle's financial sacrifice may have been unnecessary.

Thirdly... when you say you want to work for the government and help kids refresh their lives, I am not sure what that means to you in terms of being a lawyer. You would basically have to be a staff lawyer or duty counsel with legal aid to do that. You could also do it in private practice with a portion of your practice being legal aid (as I do.) Working as a Crown attorney or child welfare agency lawyer is not what I would consider "helping" kids. If you work for the government as a Crown, you're the one agreeing that those kids should be locked up over the weekend. On the other hand, teachers, social workers and program directors directly help and advocate for troubled youth in a much more hands-on way than lawyers do. So you may want to give a bit of thought as to what you want.

I also agree that it's a bit of a concern if after studying over 12 hours/week you don't yet understand the material. It shouldn't be that difficult to do the questions individually at this point - I can see how timing and stamina might be an issue, but you can't even worry about those if you don't understand the questions, and you should figure that out because law school and law practice will throw things at you that you have to figure out quickly.

And in terms of wanting to make a moderate income only, that's great, but keep in mind that you've said you're from a low income background and have a limited ability to pay for law school, which as I said means IF you get in you will likely be relying on loans as you don't have the stats for most scholarships. Many students get into law school and start panicking about paying their debt and feel that they need a high-paying law job in order to do so and are not willing to pursue their poverty law dreams any more. 

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1 hour ago, rachelzane24 said:

I have just been doing questions and trying to figure out the answers, I deff will be taking prep course to understand the concepts but I know I have to put in 10 times more work when practicing/studying for results. I know one of the main reasons I am not getting it is because I am not reading actively as I should be. 

So far, Im tackling LR and RC. I didnt even touch LG yet, it intimidates me. I am deff open to a tutor.

Coming from a low income family, I have seen to disadvantages to access to law. I want to help positively impact a family's life and law significantly influence's an individuals life. Last year, my cousin got involved with criminal charges because he was in the wrong crowd and around bad influence. He was 17 and an irrational boy lost. He had few charges against him under the youth criminal act and my uncle comes from a low income background but he sacrificed and ensured to withdraw the charges on his son by hiring a lawyer. When I attended my cousin's hearing for moral support I was heartbroken by how many kids there were left behind with no family support. Those kids had to spend a weekend in lockup because they didn't have the financial means or moral support of a lawyer. I am not trying to be a big shot wealthy corporate lawyer, I just want to be able to live a moderate lifestyle and help anyone in need who truly neglects the means for it. I want to work for the government and help kids refresh their lives legally and mentally. One bad mistake does not summarize your life. It's one bad chapter. 

So sorry for essay but I feel law is one guaranteed path to positively shape someone's life. 

Very well put! The advice abovementioned is  realistic. 

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54 minutes ago, providence said:

Well not to nitpick but I am a criminal lawyer so let's break this down a bit just so you have the correct information before you make all the sacrifices you propose. 

First of all, I'm not sure where you live but most parts of the country have legal aid duty counsel for people facing jail who cannot afford lawyers, and certainly for youth, so that youth who can be released from custody are released. With youth, if they have no family support, the delay in getting them released is likely because no relatives are willing to take them and child welfare doesn't have a place for them - I do youth criminal work and there are often huge problems connecting with social welfare agencies. This is a problem outside the justice system that affects kids in the system. I have spent many weekends unsuccessfully calling around trying to find someone to take a youth. 

Secondly, hiring a lawyer is unlikely to have assisted your uncle in having charges withdrawn. Charges are generally withdrawn where the Crown has no reasonable likelihood of conviction (a weak case, witnesses not cooperating, obvious Charter breaches by police) and/or there is no public interest in proceeding (e.g. charges were really minor and it would take too many resources.) A lawyer may sometimes be able to assist in pointing this out or have the Crown review the file faster, but it's generally a decision made by the Crown in accordance with its own policies. I admit that sometimes lawyers will take more credit for having charges withdrawn than we deserve. A legal aid-funded lawyer or even your cousin being self-represented likely would have got the same result and your uncle's financial sacrifice may have been unnecessary.

Thirdly... when you say you want to work for the government and help kids refresh their lives, I am not sure what that means to you in terms of being a lawyer. You would basically have to be a staff lawyer or duty counsel with legal aid to do that. You could also do it in private practice with a portion of your practice being legal aid (as I do.) Working as a Crown attorney or child welfare agency lawyer is not what I would consider "helping" kids. If you work for the government as a Crown, you're the one agreeing that those kids should be locked up over the weekend. On the other hand, teachers, social workers and program directors directly help and advocate for troubled youth in a much more hands-on way than lawyers do. So you may want to give a bit of thought as to what you want.

I also agree that it's a bit of a concern if after studying over 12 hours/week you don't yet understand the material. It shouldn't be that difficult to do the questions individually at this point - I can see how timing and stamina might be an issue, but you can't even worry about those if you don't understand the questions, and you should figure that out because law school and law practice will throw things at you that you have to figure out quickly.

And in terms of wanting to make a moderate income only, that's great, but keep in mind that you've said you're from a low income background and have a limited ability to pay for law school, which as I said means IF you get in you will likely be relying on loans as you don't have the stats for most scholarships. Many students get into law school and start panicking about paying their debt and feel that they need a high-paying law job in order to do so and are not willing to pursue their poverty law dreams any more. 

Ya I get what you mean but also its not like I am a lawyer to know exactly what is happening. Thanks for that clarification, I had no idea. The youth case is just once instance to make me realize that I still want to pursue law despite my subpar stats. 

I think the main reason for why I am lost is because I keep jumping between different material. First Bibles for a week, then  Khan Academy, Manhattan Prep and Kaplan. I am over doing it by confusing myself and realized to need to finish one then move onto a new source if I need further clarification. Like weaken arguments are so tricky and I think me using every source for clarification just boggled me. 

Yes I am aware of the vulnerability to be sucked into the corporate cycle for obvious reasons. That is long ahead of me, for now I need to focus on overcoming my LSAT fear and confidently learning the logical techniques to do well on the test. 

Thanks for your input. 

 

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3 hours ago, rachelzane24 said:

That is helpful, the LSAT is my make it break it shot. It is just frustrating cause as I am studying I feel like I know what Im doing but then I get the whole questions wrong because I am not reading properly as in I overlook a key word in the choices from the stimulus. Hopefully I read more actively! Ugh hearing about the online LSAT makes me even more worried because I like underlining key words and tablet seems like a nightmare. 

OOF I had the same problem as you have when I was studying, and I felt like it was made worse because I was only using the Khan Academy stuff so it wasn't on paper and I couldn't underline key words. The only advice I have for that is to read the questions carefully, twice if you have to, then tackle the questions. I found that I eventually got a feel for what the test makers were looking for, and my score improved a lot!

I feel you on how dense the LR Bible is, too; I bought that because I had run out of new questions with Khan Academy. They use real LSAT questions, by the way! There's even a resource on their website where you can see exactly which test they pulled them from. Even though they're dense, they have great points and were incredibly valuable in improving my score in my practice tests. It's worth the headache to work through them IMO. I also juggled KA and the LR Bible and found that it was easier for me to work through the LR Bible for a few chapters, then try a practice test on KA once a week to try out the strategies I learned.

As for weaken questions, the best tip I have is from the LR Bible: Try switching the answer. So if an answer says "Students who didn't eat breakfast got good grades", switch it to "Students who did eat breakfast got good grades". If the switched answer strengthens the argument in the stimulus, then that's the one you want!

I can't speak to anything else in your thread, since I'm not even a student yet (just wrote the LSAT today haha), let alone a practicing lawyer, but I wish you the best of luck!

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10 minutes ago, rachelzane24 said:

Ya I get what you mean but also its not like I am a lawyer to know exactly what is happening. Thanks for that clarification, I had no idea. The youth case is just once instance to make me realize that I still want to pursue law despite my subpar stats. 

I think the main reason for why I am lost is because I keep jumping between different material. First Bibles for a week, then  Khan Academy, Manhattan Prep and Kaplan. I am over doing it by confusing myself and realized to need to finish one then move onto a new source if I need further clarification. Like weaken arguments are so tricky and I think me using every source for clarification just boggled me. 

Yes I am aware of the vulnerability to be sucked into the corporate cycle for obvious reasons. That is long ahead of me, for now I need to focus on overcoming my LSAT fear and confidently learning the logical techniques to do well on the test. 

Thanks for your input. 

 

Are you sure you need all those books?

To understand the test, isn't the best source an old test with an answer key? Do a couple of questions, check to see what the answers are, if you didn't get them right, work backwards to figure out why? I would think that all that other stuff would be confusing. 

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5 minutes ago, RGoodfellow said:

OOF I had the same problem as you have when I was studying, and I felt like it was made worse because I was only using the Khan Academy stuff so it wasn't on paper and I couldn't underline key words. The only advice I have for that is to read the questions carefully, twice if you have to, then tackle the questions. I found that I eventually got a feel for what the test makers were looking for, and my score improved a lot!

I feel you on how dense the LR Bible is, too; I bought that because I had run out of new questions with Khan Academy. They use real LSAT questions, by the way! There's even a resource on their website where you can see exactly which test they pulled them from. Even though they're dense, they have great points and were incredibly valuable in improving my score in my practice tests. It's worth the headache to work through them IMO. I also juggled KA and the LR Bible and found that it was easier for me to work through the LR Bible for a few chapters, then try a practice test on KA once a week to try out the strategies I learned.

As for weaken questions, the best tip I have is from the LR Bible: Try switching the answer. So if an answer says "Students who didn't eat breakfast got good grades", switch it to "Students who did eat breakfast got good grades". If the switched answer strengthens the argument in the stimulus, then that's the one you want!

I can't speak to anything else in your thread, since I'm not even a student yet (just wrote the LSAT today haha), let alone a practicing lawyer, but I wish you the best of luck!

Glad to know I am not the only one who suffered with the fear and looked at so many different sources! Yess I am trying so hard to be a more active reader despite the topics. That is literally what I am doing right now, taking KA'a lesson page then reading Bible for its techniques and questions. I like KA cause at work I use it a lot which is why I want to still incorporate it. I agree very dense but some solid points. 

Thanks for the tip! And I hope you get the score you want and receive an offer of admissions for 2019! :) 

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7 minutes ago, providence said:

Are you sure you need all those books?

To understand the test, isn't the best source an old test with an answer key? Do a couple of questions, check to see what the answers are, if you didn't get them right, work backwards to figure out why? I would think that all that other stuff would be confusing. 

YA I prob don't. The fear in me got the worst of me. I am deff doing that right now, even checking why my right answers are correct to get a better understanding, 

You are right, it is very confusing. Thanks for your advice :) 

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I think you should just work through the Bible in its entirety. It helped me a lot. I used the LR and the LG ones, my scores improved immensely without a tutor. I then just bought packages of the old test and did timed sections on the side for practice.

Edited by Starling
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8 minutes ago, Starling said:

I think you should just work through the Bible in its entirety. It helped me a lot. I used the LR and the LG ones, my scores improved immensely without a tutor. I then just bought packages of the old test and did timed sections on the side for practice.

I will definitely be doing that! Hopefully I can break through its density. Thanks for your advice :)

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Just now, rachelzane24 said:

I will definitely be doing that! Hopefully I can break through its density. Thanks for your advice :)

Yeah, I actually didn't find it too bad. I took notes as I went through it and summarized it in my own words. That might help.

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10 minutes ago, hottawa said:

I used the LSAT Trainer and swear by it.

I am so afraid of digging into new stuff now but I'll try it if nothing else comes 

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Just now, Starling said:

Yeah, I actually didn't find it too bad. I took notes as I went through it and summarized it in my own words. That might help.

Ya so far that's what I am doing, jotting down short sentences for better understanding! 

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I feel like a lot of comments here have been quite negative about your chances. You can absolutely go to Law School with a L2 of 3.48 but your LSAT will be key. In my opinion 10 hours a week is pretty much nothing in terms of LSAT prep. You are looking at needing probably a 165 or better. This is absolutely doable but you will need to dedicate yourself entirely to it. I had a similar situation to yours, I have a low GPA and to get into the school I want I needed a 170 LSAT. I took the test twice. The first time I scored a 165 and the second time I scored a 171. I studied a minimum of 4 hours a day 6 days a week. I didn’t burn out because I wanted it more than anything else. You can get yourself into law school if that’s what you want. But it’s going to take a lot of work. 

As far as prep goes. I am now an LSAT instructor and I will tell you that prep courses are designed to teach to the middle. You are looking at needing the 90th percentile or better so prep courses can help you get started but you’re gonna need to do a lot on your own to get your score where you need it. I like the bibles a lot and 7sages LG explanations are probably one of the best free resources out there. 

Good luck! If you really want this, you’ll get it. Although I will caution you that the LSAT is a ruthless test. Don’t be discouraged if it takes you a lot of time to get it right. 

And finally. Remember that law school is extremely expensive in both time and money. So really think about whether it’s an investment you are willing to make.

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12 minutes ago, Johnappleseed said:

I feel like a lot of comments here have been quite negative about your chances. You can absolutely go to Law School with a L2 of 3.48 but your LSAT will be key. In my opinion 10 hours a week is pretty much nothing in terms of LSAT prep. You are looking at needing probably a 165 or better. This is absolutely doable but you will need to dedicate yourself entirely to it. I had a similar situation to yours, I have a low GPA and to get into the school I want I needed a 170 LSAT. I took the test twice. The first time I scored a 165 and the second time I scored a 171. I studied a minimum of 4 hours a day 6 days a week. I didn’t burn out because I wanted it more than anything else. You can get yourself into law school if that’s what you want. But it’s going to take a lot of work. 

As far as prep goes. I am now an LSAT instructor and I will tell you that prep courses are designed to teach to the middle. You are looking at needing the 90th percentile or better so prep courses can help you get started but you’re gonna need to do a lot on your own to get your score where you need it. I like the bibles a lot and 7sages LG explanations are probably one of the best free resources out there. 

Good luck! If you really want this, you’ll get it. Although I will caution you that the LSAT is a ruthless test. Don’t be discouraged if it takes you a lot of time to get it right. 

And finally. Remember that law school is extremely expensive in both time and money. So really think about whether it’s an investment you are willing to make.

Thank you for the positivity!! It is nice to know someone was on a similar boat as me. I am dedicated to putting in the time and effort for acing the LSAT. I know it is a very hard test, not something I can master in 3 months, more like a year. I am aware the courses will just help me understand concepts but if I want to master those concepts I have to put in a lot of time practicing. Do you teach classes in Toronto? Once again thanks for the positivity :)  It helps knowing I wont get it overnight, it will take time and effort to get it. Now I get why America believes the idea that a strong LSAT is a must for law school and luck with the bar. FYI, I read this in a law school blog, its someone's opinion do not bash me for it. 

YEs very true, its something costly mentally and financially. For now, I am :) 

 

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3 hours ago, Shankar said:

Definitely don't do that.  Not only is it a horrible idea from a emotional/mental health standpoint, it's counterproductive.  There's a point at which you'll see diminishing returns in your studies because there is a point at which you'll start to burn out.  It's also a test of aptitude, meaning there is only a certain point any one person can reach.  It's not as if you can just study enough and get a 180 or whatever your goal score may be. 

If you want my opinion, about 10-15 hours a week in the couple months leading up to the test is enough.  

 

Not to disagree on what probably isn't important at all, but I think the notion of burn out is often overstated and person-dependent. I spent far too long studying for the LSAT (about ~5 months total), and my progress went from a mid-150s to mid-160s pretty quickly, then a spotty performance with a wide range of low-160s to low-170s. It then took me a solid month of grinding it out daily (~8-10 hrs) to average ~177-178 (over a sample of ~20 PTs). 

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41 minutes ago, rachelzane24 said:

Thank you for the positivity!! It is nice to know someone was on a similar boat as me. I am dedicated to putting in the time and effort for acing the LSAT. I know it is a very hard test, not something I can master in 3 months, more like a year. I am aware the courses will just help me understand concepts but if I want to master those concepts I have to put in a lot of time practicing. Do you teach classes in Toronto? Once again thanks for the positivity :)  It helps knowing I wont get it overnight, it will take time and effort to get it. Now I get why America believes the idea that a strong LSAT is a must for law school and luck with the bar. FYI, I read this in a law school blog, its someone's opinion do not bash me for it. 

YEs very true, its something costly mentally and financially. For now, I am :) 

 

Sorry I’m in Vancouver but I’m sure you will find an awesome tutor out your way! One piece of advice I will give you: 

everyone hits a wall in their LSAT prep at some point and this is why it is so common to hear people say things like “you hit diminishing marginal returns on your study.” In fact this is not true of study in general. You do however hit diminishing returns on certain study techniques. This is because the LSAT is layered and designed to stick certain people into certain score bands. It is sort of like digging a hole. You can get through the topsoil with a shovel, but when you hit the bedrock if you don’t change tools you’re gonna have a hell of a time making any more progress. As you gain further understanding you have to be dynamic and extremely self critical. Just because a certain technique got you from a 150 to a 160 doesn’t mean it will get you from a 160 to a 165. This is where people get stuck. Something works, and then when it stops working they don’t adapt, they just spend more time doing the same thing. Then they get frustrated and they decide that they are simply not capable of scoring any higher. The most difficult aspect of the test is that it tests your ability to be an effective and dynamic learner. It is not a test of your aptitude for the Law itself, but of your aptitude for efficient learning. 

I hope this helps. And remember, what works for someone else may or may not work for you. Keep an open mind and constantly adapt your strategies as you move forward with your prep.

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