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2L Summer (2019) Recruit PFOs/ITCs

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20 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

I do not think this is an approrriate characterization of the issue. This issue being a question of a “basic skill set” is not “all [that] it is.” This places all the burden on individuals from underrepresented social groups.

While certainly, being personable, kind, and charming, may be considered a basic and valuable skill set for this profession, I do not think a dominant culture informed by certain racial, class, and gender groups that can repeatedly alienate unndrepresented social groups is just something those from said underrepresented social groups should just suck up and deal with lol.

Such a dynamic exists, and from my perspective I think it ought to be changed to the extent that it can be changed.  To be thinking of how to be more and more inclusive and open to underrepresented social groups is, I think, an important objective of the profession. This objective may very well be advanced by adjusting the interview process in terms of questions or kinds of activities a firm hosts.

I am happy to hear your viewpoint is coming from a visible minority perspective. It’s also important to know we don’t all have the same ideas on this issue. 

I think that the culture will change and is changing the more that underrepresented groups become a dominant force at the firms. But they have to get there first. Feeling sorry for yourself because you feel "alienated" doesn't help anyone. If they brought you in for an interview, you're good enough to be there and they're interested in you. When you get hired and are on the hiring committee, you will be able to make suggestions as to how things can be done differently. You can't do it if you don't get hired because you didn't want to play the game. And if you are personable, kind and charming, you will be less likely to feel alienated.

If you ever talk to older Jewish lawyers, they were very alienated when they started out in law, but they stuck it out and now many of them are the big shots doing the hiring - and I know many who go out of their way to try to encourage minorities. 

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12 minutes ago, providence said:

I think that the culture will change and is changing the more that underrepresented groups become a dominant force at the firms. But they have to get there first. Feeling sorry for yourself because you feel "alienated" doesn't help anyone. If they brought you in for an interview, you're good enough to be there and they're interested in you. When you get hired and are on the hiring committee, you will be able to make suggestions as to how things can be done differently. You can't do it if you don't get hired because you didn't want to play the game. And if you are personable, kind and charming, you will be less likely to feel alienated.

If you ever talk to older Jewish lawyers, they were very alienated when they started out in law, but they stuck it out and now many of them are the big shots doing the hiring - and I know many who go out of their way to try to encourage minorities. 

I agree with you to an extent. Though, I would like to think that I and others who may agree with the perspective I am advocating for are not just coming from a place of “feeling sorry” for themselves. It is true those from said groups must get their first and ought to strive to do so according to the requirements. I also think it ought to be the case that we shouldn’t just repeat the errors of hiring committees of yesteryear when Jewish lawyers where working their way up. I don’t think it’s the same as it was then this day and age, progress has been made. And, I commend the firms that shun complacency and opt to pursue further progress on this issue by adjusting their approaches to recruitment etc.

 

Edited by Ghalm

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Just now, Ghalm said:

I agree with you to an extent. Though, I would like to think I and others who may agree with the perspective I am advocating for are not just coming from a place of “feeling sorry” for themselves.

I think older Jewish lawyers is a great example. 

Well I'm not sure what the point is otherwise of highlighting that people of colour "bear more of a burden" or are "repeatedly alienated."

People of colour bear more of a burden to walk on the effing street, or drive a car, or go in a store, or go on an online dating site. Doesn't mean you stop living your life because all those things can suck. If you've gotten invited to a Bay Street in-firm interview, you are better off than most of your people. Of course, you can never forget the social reality you live in, and yes, it is nice when others acknowledge it. But at the same time, it is called systemic racism for a reason - these are systems and they aren't going to be changed in a day. So you have a choice - to fit in to the system and change it from the inside, or rage at it from the outside. 

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5 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

I agree with you to an extent. Though, I would like to think that I and others who may agree with the perspective I am advocating for are not just coming from a place of “feeling sorry” for themselves. It is true those from said groups must get their first and ought to strive to do so according to the requirements. I also think it ought to be the case that we shouldn’t just repeat the errors of hiring committees of yesteryear when Jewish lawyers where working their way up. I don’t think it’s the same as it was then this day and age, progress has been made. And, I commend the firms that shun complacency and opt to pursue further progress on this issue by adjusting their approaches to recruitment etc.

 

I'd want to see evidence that those adjustments are actually substantive and actually work. I feel like sometimes they're more about the optics than anything.

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Just now, providence said:

Well I'm not sure what the point is otherwise of highlighting that people of colour "bear more of a burden" or are "repeatedly alienated."

People of colour bear more of a burden to walk on the effing street, or drive a car, or go in a store, or go on an online dating site. Doesn't mean you stop living your life because all those things can suck. If you've gotten invited to a Bay Street in-firm interview, you are better off than most of your people. Of course, you can never forget the social reality you live in, and yes, it is nice when others acknowledge it. But at the same time, it is called systemic racism for a reason - these are systems and they aren't going to be changed in a day. So you have a choice - to fit in to the system and change it from the inside, or rage at it from the outside. 

I am sorry who said we are just raging from the outside lol. Clearly, I am acknowledging such systemic issues... and I am commending firms that are adjusting their approaches to account for said issues. Not sure why you seem to think such commendation and call for further refinement is the same thing as stopping one’s life and raging from the outside...

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Just now, providence said:

I'd want to see evidence that those adjustments are actually substantive and actually work. I feel like sometimes they're more about the optics than anything.

That is an important question! I’d love to see that too for if they are not substantive then I’d say it’s time for some further refinement. 

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2 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

I am sorry who said we are just raging from the outside lol. Clearly, I am acknowledging such systemic issues... and I am commending firms that are adjusting their approaches to account for said issues. Not sure why you seem to think such commendation and call for further refinement is the same thing as stopping one’s life and raging from the outside...

I wasn't referring to you, just people in general and life in general. ☺️

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Just further to my point:

I do know what it is like to feel alienated and feel like you bear an unreasonable burden.

I felt it when I was in school and didn't speak any English.

I felt it in college when I was surrounded by kids coming from privilege and I was embarrassed to tell them anything about my family.

I felt it when I was young and pregnant the first time and I would go to my appointments and get lectures about not doing drugs and how I could adopt because there were people who really wanted babies.

I felt it when I was doing a job and had it made clear to me that they wanted a blond girl.

I felt it in law school when everyone (ok, not everyone but it seemed like it) was talking about their trips to Europe and I didn't know how I was going to feed my kids.

I felt it when I was in court and the Crown and judge were condescending to me that I couldn't possibly know what they were talking about.

I felt it when I got pulled over for driving a luxury car.

I felt it when I had slurs yelled at me just for walking on the street.

I felt it when I went to meet the family of the person I love and they made it clear I was not the ideal.

And yes, I felt it in law interviews.

My children tell me they feel the same things and it makes me so friggin' angry that the next generation has to deal with it. I am tired of crying over it. I am tired. 

So yes, it is not fair that some people have burdens others don't and it's not that I don't agree with you but I just don't know what to do about it any more, so if I have to talk about hockey and golf to get my piece of the pie, I will do that.

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2 minutes ago, providence said:

Just further to my point:

I do know what it is like to feel alienated and feel like you bear an unreasonable burden.

I felt it when I was in school and didn't speak any English.

I felt it in college when I was surrounded by kids coming from privilege and I was embarrassed to tell them anything about my family.

I felt it when I was young and pregnant the first time and I would go to my appointments and get lectures about not doing drugs and how I could adopt because there were people who really wanted babies.

I felt it when I was doing a job and had it made clear to me that they wanted a blond girl.

I felt it in law school when everyone (ok, not everyone but it seemed like it) was talking about their trips to Europe and I didn't know how I was going to feed my kids.

I felt it when I was in court and the Crown and judge were condescending to me that I couldn't possibly know what they were talking about.

I felt it when I got pulled over for driving a luxury car.

I felt it when I had slurs yelled at me just for walking on the street.

I felt it when I went to meet the family of the person I love and they made it clear I was not the ideal.

And yes, I felt it in law interviews.

My children tell me they feel the same things and it makes me so friggin' angry that the next generation has to deal with it. I am tired of crying over it. I am tired. 

So yes, it is not fair that some people have burdens others don't and it's not that I don't agree with you but I just don't know what to do about it any more, so if I have to talk about hockey and golf to get my piece of the pie, I will do that.

Thank you for this insightful account, Providence! 

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3 minutes ago, switchdog said:

When do we find out who went where? 

If you're a 2L your firm will send you a list of your summer class so you can creep them on LinkedIn/Facebook at your leisure. Some firms will put the names on their websites though most will wait until the summer when students actually start

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31 minutes ago, healthlaw said:

If you're a 2L your firm will send you a list of your summer class so you can creep them on LinkedIn/Facebook at your leisure. Some firms will put the names on their websites though most will wait until the summer when students actually start

Davies is already up. People are welcome to post here which firms have posted.

PrecdentJD also has some numbers by firm. 

Edited by sman99

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51 minutes ago, sman99 said:

Davies is already up. People are welcome to post here which firms have posted.

PrecdentJD also has some numbers by firm. 

Hiring up all over the place. I wonder what happened at Blakes...

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5 minutes ago, hottawa said:

Hiring up all over the place. I wonder what happened at Blakes...

Same thing happened a few years back with them and they went big in the 1L recruit...

 

Edited by sman99

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Just now, sman99 said:

Same thing happened a few years back with them..0

 

Although.. I think 15 of their class last year were returning 1Ls, and 8 came back this year. 22 2Ls both years. Who knows what that means.

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Not sure where else to post this, but when do articling terms normally start/end? As in, which months? Starts near the end of summer/September, or sooner? 

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Starts early August usually, though I’ve heard some start as early as mid July. It lasts 10 months, so at some point in June you’re done. 

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On 12/17/2018 at 9:41 AM, FingersCr0ssed said:

Hate to revive this but what is the general process for finding a summer sublet for those students coming from out of town? Any recommendations?

I was out of province and I lived at the Woodsworth Residence. It was great, very cheap and really easy to get around since the st. george station was very close to the residence. 

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