Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
iacoboujee

2L Summer (2019) Recruit PFOs/ITCs

Recommended Posts

51 minutes ago, Muskiehunter said:

This is helpful, but I can't imagine that many people who struck out through OCIs would be competitive clerkship applicants, at least at the appellate level, which is where the prestige is (at least as far as I understand). 

I am not sure if I agree. Someone is competitive enough, in the sense that they have good grades, if they secure an OCI. At this interview stage, I would speculate that a clerkship interview, and the desired candidate, aren't similar to the 90% private firms who dominate the OCI process.

On the flip side, I know for a fact I would not excel in a clerkship interview, but I did do well in interviews with private firms. The alternative must also hold true for some wherein they would excel in clerkship interviews and "not excel" with private firms.

Edited by FingersCr0ssed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People who are extroverts or can at least fake it for three days have an incredible advantage in the formal recruit. Many, many excellent candidates fall through the cracks and successfully find clerkships.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, OWH said:

The most impressive thing about the Toronto firms is their diversity. It doesn't matter which private school you went to, you have an equal chance of getting hired. 

this was funnier the first time I read it on badlegal

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, FingersCr0ssed said:

For those who did not receive an offer through this process I would just like to echo this sentiment again. I was told, by many associates and partners, of the abysmal attrition rate of Bay Street. Although it seems like Bay is the place to go, the constant departing of talent is indicative of something.

It's mostly indicative of the fact that working on Bay gives you lots of great exit opportunities to do things you otherwise wouldn't, like become GC of up-and-coming companies. It's not like it's a meat grinder where you need to get out before you're crushed.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

I can assure you plenty of competitive on paper applicants strike out at OCIs. 

This. There are many competitive applicants that strike out at OCIs every single year. People with amazing grades and experiences that just don't do well in Bay street's informal, chit-chatty interview structures. 

There are also tons of VERY MEDIOCRE students that get hired every single year. Mediocre grades with mediocre experiences, but have the right type of personality to sell themselves. That's why I caution people about drawing inferences about themselves or others from the OCIs. You getting hired doesn't make you a superior law student and the fact that someone didn't get hired doesnt make them inferior by any means --> this is common perception that tons of students have and it's part of the reason students who don't get hired feel so crummy afterwards

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, healthlaw said:

This. There are many competitive applicants that strike out at OCIs every single year. People with amazing grades and experiences that just don't do well in Bay street's informal, chit-chatty interview structures. 

 There are also tons of VERY MEDIOCRE students that get hired every single year. Mediocre grades with mediocre experiences, but have the right type of personality to sell themselves. That's why I caution people about drawing inferences about themselves or others from the OCIs. You getting hired doesn't make you a superior law student and the fact that someone didn't get hired doesnt make them inferior by any means --> this is common perception that tons of students have and it's part of the reason students who don't get hired feel so crummy afterwards

Not sure I agree with that. Having seen the bios for the candidates we interviewed for example, everyone had good grades, everyone had an interesting bio, some more interesting than others. Do some mediocre candidates charm the right people? Sure. But you're overstating how often that occurs. By and large, the candidates hired at the top Bay street firms are some of the top candidates in the country.

I get that people want to feel better about the process or have legitimate gripes, but there's a lot of sour grapes and a lot of shitting all over talented, accomplished people who end up on Bay street instead of elsewhere.

When the student lists come out, go look at who gets hired at Davies, Blakes, Torys, Faskens, McCarthys, etc. You'll find the vast majority are stellar candidates, doing well in school, with interesting backgrounds. Everyone in my year that got hired was a fantastic candidate that was interesting, enjoyable to work with, friendly and professional. All of them are stellar lawyers that I would recommend in a second to anyone needing one. Some candidates my firm has hired haven't panned out for one reason or another, and maybe my firm just does it better than others, but I don't find a "ton" of mediocre candidates making their way through.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rashabon said:

Not sure I agree with that. Having seen the bios for the candidates we interviewed for example, everyone had good grades, everyone had an interesting bio, some more interesting than others. Do some mediocre candidates charm the right people? Sure. But you're overstating how often that occurs. By and large, the candidates hired at the top Bay street firms are some of the top candidates in the country.

I get that people want to feel better about the process or have legitimate gripes, but there's a lot of sour grapes and a lot of shitting all over talented, accomplished people who end up on Bay street instead of elsewhere.

When the student lists come out, go look at who gets hired at Davies, Blakes, Torys, Faskens, McCarthys, etc. You'll find the vast majority are stellar candidates, doing well in school, with interesting backgrounds. Everyone in my year that got hired was a fantastic candidate that was interesting, enjoyable to work with, friendly and professional. All of them are stellar lawyers that I would recommend in a second to anyone needing one. Some candidates my firm has hired haven't panned out for one reason or another, and maybe my firm just does it better than others, but I don't find a "ton" of mediocre candidates making their way through.

My post certainly wasn't shitting on the accomplishments of those who get hired through OCIs. I got hired through the OCI process years ago... my post certainly wasn't made to console myself. I actually enjoyed OCIs. But I stand by what I said - there are lots of average students with average grades that get hired every year. I wouldn't go as far to say they are the vast majority, but they certainly aren't a small minority either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

By and large, the candidates hired at the top Bay street firms are some of the top candidates in the country.

While my peers who did get hired are very talented people, I think you're reaching here. The top students clerk at appellate clerks/SCC and or find jobs in extremely coveted boutique jobs or NY. 

Certainly people who get hired have achieved and are successful. But to say they're the top candidates in the country.. is a bit of a reach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

While my peers who did get hired are very talented people, I think you're reaching here. The top students clerk at appellate clerks/SCC and or find jobs in extremely coveted boutique jobs or NY. 

Certainly people who get hired have achieved and are successful. But to say they're the top candidates in the country.. is a bit of a reach.

I mean.. many of the people clerking at appellate courts spend a summer on Bay. I think the statement "by and large, the candidates hired at the top Bay street firms are some of the top candidates in the country," is objectively correct. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway agree to disagree. I can't really contribute to this without getting accused of bias anyway so I'll sit this one out. I'm just saying.. look at where the medalists go, and don't forget that Canada != Toronto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, providence said:

Bay hires a lot of people... by definition they can’t all be “top candidates.” 

To be fair to Rashabon he may have been only speaking about certain firms. Davies for example has the rep of hiring top GPA candidates, among other things. But Davies isn't bay (thankfully..).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

It's mostly indicative of the fact that working on Bay gives you lots of great exit opportunities to do things you otherwise wouldn't, like become GC of up-and-coming companies. It's not like it's a meat grinder where you need to get out before you're crushed.

Thats actually a good point. I guess each firm tries to convince the students that they're different/ friendlier/ supportive by noting that everyone leaves other Bay Street firms after a few years. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Radfahrer said:

For anyone who didn't get an offer last night, I get it. It sucks. I struck out at OCIs. I was devastated. Thought my career was over. 

Fast forward to now, not being hired at a big Bay St. firm, in retrospect, was one of the best things that happened to me. I ended up in a great field, have better quality of life, and don't make any less than my peers on Bay.

I would echo this sentiment 100%. When I struck out after in-firms, I thought my career was over too. And to be fair, my career as an aspiring corporate lawyer who hated the idea of doing corporate law WAS over. 

Not getting a job that I felt like I was supposed to want forced me to consider the type of work I actually DID want to do. I'm now working in civil litigation, in a job I very much enjoy, living what I feel is a much more balanced life, getting to be in court all the time, and making basically the same amount of money as my peers on Bay St.

I thank my lucky stars every day that the Bay St firms I interviewed with didn't want to hire me.

Edited by beyondsection17
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, providence said:

Bay hires a lot of people... by definition they can’t all be “top candidates.” 

This was the premise of my argument. Thank you for stating it so succinctly. No one is disputing the fact that many (even most) of the students hired on Bay are objectively impressive. But there are a large minority of students who are pretty average - which isnt a bad thing considering the talent pool in law school in general 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're getting into semantics here with the definition of 'top students'. If we're talking about medalists, that group wouldn't satisfy even one of the largest hiring cohorts at a single firm. Let's not get silly here. Rashabon is correct that most large firms hire some of the top students in the country, the optimal word being some. Believe it or not, many of the 'top students' have no interest in working at a large firm.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, FingersCr0ssed said:

Thats actually a good point. I guess each firm tries to convince the students that they're different/ friendlier/ supportive by noting that everyone leaves other Bay Street firms after a few years. 

Don't most big firms assume that a lot of associates will leave after a certain time, and this is why they have a constant recruiting and hiring machine? 

 

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

Not sure I agree with that. Having seen the bios for the candidates we interviewed for example, everyone had good grades, everyone had an interesting bio, some more interesting than others. Do some mediocre candidates charm the right people? Sure. But you're overstating how often that occurs. By and large, the candidates hired at the top Bay street firms are some of the top candidates in the country.

I get that people want to feel better about the process or have legitimate gripes, but there's a lot of sour grapes and a lot of shitting all over talented, accomplished people who end up on Bay street instead of elsewhere.

When the student lists come out, go look at who gets hired at Davies, Blakes, Torys, Faskens, McCarthys, etc. You'll find the vast majority are stellar candidates, doing well in school, with interesting backgrounds. Everyone in my year that got hired was a fantastic candidate that was interesting, enjoyable to work with, friendly and professional. All of them are stellar lawyers that I would recommend in a second to anyone needing one. Some candidates my firm has hired haven't panned out for one reason or another, and maybe my firm just does it better than others, but I don't find a "ton" of mediocre candidates making their way through.

Perhaps it is different in Ontario. In my province, plenty of very average students with B averages and not particularly impressive resumes got hired at big corporate firms, in my province and in other provinces. And there was some nepotism involved for more than a few of them. I remember hearing that in Toronto, you cannot hire your child into your own firm. Well, in my province, you can, and people do. Their friends also hire each other's kids. In my year, very few of the top students were interested in corporate law. A few did go to Bay or to big firms in other provinces, but most of the rest clerked, articled at competitive government places or non-profits, went to top boutiques, or went to grad school. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t think it’s just semantics. At this time of year, lots of students are questioning their self-worth and future in law. I don’t think it helps to hear rhetoric about top students. The fact is that every year, people ask if they should apply to Bay with B averages or even if they have a C+ or two, and they are invariably told to go for it and barraged by stories of people on Bay with Cs. No one encourages people to apply to the SCC with a B curve or Cs.  10% of the class in many cases gets As, HHs etc. 30 or 40 or 50% of some classes go to Bay if I am remembering correctly. So there must be plenty of students on Bay who are just around or only slightly above the curve, and a few slightly below it in all likelihood, but there isn’t room for everyone on the curve to be there. That’s the reality. Sure, the A/HH students who apply will usually do well but they are not everyone.

Yeah, sour grapes don’t do anyone any good, but things are pretty raw right now. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lioness said:

Don't most big firms assume that a lot of associates will leave after a certain time, and this is why they have a constant recruiting and hiring machine? 

Maybe the largest of the large (I don't know I didn't interview with them), but the firm I am going to seemed adamant about selecting "future partners". Again, it could be the coaxing of the interview process, only time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pzabbythesecond said:

To be fair to Rashabon he may have been only speaking about certain firms. Davies for example has the rep of hiring top GPA candidates, among other things. But Davies isn't bay (thankfully..).

I'm sure the people who whine about the Seven Sisters moniker are going to descend on you shortly, because Davies is absolutely a Bay street firm by any definition other than that they moved their office from Bay to Simcoe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Recent Posts

    • You are 100% for OZ, Western and Queens. Close to 100% for U of T
    • We have 5 courses at once this year, because some courses have been divided by term. But it's usually 7, so you could probably count on that next year. We probably only spend about 10 hours a week in lecture or tutorial. But this is not counting pre-recorded lectures, which vary quite a bit because the profs aren't really bound to a timeslot anymore. I would think like 15-18 hours would be normal for "in-class" at a normal time. I personally probably spend another 25 hours a week or so on top of that to do the readings and assignments, so pretty close to 40 hours on the whole, overall. I can't stree enough that this will really vary by individual. Some people don't feel the need to read most of the cases, so will definitely be less. I'm sure some also feel the need to re-read, consult more secondary sources, etc. There's certainly no way I could work while doing this, but I know that some of my classmates are doing it. It will really be down to your organizational skills as an individual! -GM
    • Thanks for the reply I appreciate it!

×
×
  • Create New...