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hermionegranger

2019/2020 Toronto Articling Recruit (ITC Emails for Interviews)

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1 minute ago, providence said:

No one is perfect. There is always something you can improve.

Totally agree. I definitely don't think I did perfect. If i did perfect, then you would have hired me.

Yet whenever I reach out to these firms, that's the debrief. I push and say can you just be blunt and candid? We are doing this over the phone so I don't have it on text or recorded to hold it against you. I even say this is off the record and I just need your honesty to improve.

Nope, that  does not get me further. Further spin on its a numbers game. "Hope it works for you, hymo, i know you will do great wherever you go ". Good luck in future endeavours,

And then I'm back at again for the next recruit. Cycle repeats.

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It's a fairly arbitrary process, which can be frustrating to accept. Take solace in the fact that those who are driven to be at the top of the game tend to find their way there, one way or another. If you're driven, which it seems you are, you'll get there too. 

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5 minutes ago, hmyo said:

Totally agree. I definitely don't think I did perfect. If i did perfect, then you would have hired me.

Yet whenever I reach out to these firms, that's the debrief. I push and say can you just be blunt and candid? We are doing this over the phone so I don't have it on text or recorded to hold it against you. I even say this is off the record and I just need your honesty to improve.

Nope, that  does not get me further. Further spin on its a numbers game. "Hope it works for you, hymo, i know you will do great wherever you go ". Good luck in future endeavours,

And then I'm back at again for the next recruit. Cycle repeats.

Well, what do you think? Do you think you targeted your applications specifically enough for the firms? Did you have the best possible flow/rapport in the interviews? I remember you posted about doing nothing for 2L summer - did you find something to do? 

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1 minute ago, providence said:

Well, what do you think? Do you think you targeted your applications specifically enough for the firms? Did you have the best possible flow/rapport in the interviews? I remember you posted about doing nothing for 2L summer - did you find something to do? 

I have no gaps in my resume. I have legal experience this summer in the relevant practice that I am interviewing for.

If I received an interview, I imagine then my application was tailored enough to pass their screening. Is that fair to assume?

Best possible flow - I felt fine. Additionally, I got invited to second and third interviews right so again, that's all I have to go on.

I get that it's possible to do everything correctly and still come up short. That's not a weakness; that's just life. I appreciate you trying to walk me through it but the answers perplex me too.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, hmyo said:

I have no gaps in my resume. I have legal experience this summer in the relevant practice that I am interviewing for.

If I received an interview, I imagine then my application was tailored enough to pass their screening. Is that fair to assume?

Best possible flow - I felt fine. Additionally, I got invited to second and third interviews right so again, that's all I have to go on.

I get that it's possible to do everything correctly and still come up short. That's not a weakness; that's just life. I appreciate you trying to walk me through it but the answers perplex me too.

 

 

Your goal isn't to pass screening but to get the job. Screening means you get the opportunity to wow them at the interview. Wow them, not just do fine, or do enough. Wowing them is what gets the job, not getting screened in. 

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4 minutes ago, hmyo said:

I have no gaps in my resume. I have legal experience this summer in the relevant practice that I am interviewing for.

If I received an interview, I imagine then my application was tailored enough to pass their screening. Is that fair to assume?

Best possible flow - I felt fine. Additionally, I got invited to second and third interviews right so again, that's all I have to go on.

I get that it's possible to do everything correctly and still come up short. That's not a weakness; that's just life. I appreciate you trying to walk me through it but the answers perplex me too.

 

 

I was the same as you.

But I got extremely unlucky because 3 firms invited me to dinners that were all at the same time on Tuesday. I told the two firms I was less interested in that I was still extremely interested but made another obligation already and requested to come back Wednesday. Both firms told me they were very impressed with me and that the dinner was the final part of the hiring process.

I wish there was another way to do it were I do not get royally screwed because I have to choose between 3 firms and then risk lowering my odds.

At the end I got nothing and I am kicking myself thinking what would have happened if I attended another dinner.

Also, I have friends that got more lucky and had more receptions that they could simply leave early or were invited to 2nd/3rd interviews on Wednesday which increased their chances.

It's a really awful process and they need to tailor it better for the students so we don't get screwed.

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48 minutes ago, hmyo said:

I didn't respond for that exact reason you listed. I was thinking... are you seriously going to take that position and then lecture me? Classic cognitive dissonance.

Thank you for seeing that and I imagine it's a stronger responses coming from someone other than me.

My point is that you can’t blame firms for having these practices sometimes. If you can’t see that then that’s a problem. 

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1 minute ago, providence said:

Your goal isn't to pass screening but to get the job. Screening means you get the opportunity to wow them at the interview. Wow them, not just do fine, or do enough. Wowing them is what gets the job, not getting screened in. 

True, but getting screened means I have demonstrated enough interest and tailored my app relative to hundreds of people who were cut.

I get the possibly about not wowing them at the interview but... I was invited back for more interviews so I am thinking they were wowed (at least initially)?

I don't know providence. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. But when I am already running at top speed and the response is run faster, then I have nothing for you.

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3 minutes ago, hmyo said:

 

I don't know providence. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. But when I am already running at top speed and the response is run faster, then I have nothing for you.

And why do you think you are running at “top speed”?  You seem to lack self awareness 

Edited by Disputes
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2 minutes ago, Disputes said:

My point is that you can’t blame firms for having these practices sometimes. If you can’t see that then that’s a problem. 

I can blame them for hiring based on nepotism. That's wrong. I believe adults should sink or swim on their own, not ride their parents' coattails. 

1 minute ago, hmyo said:

True, but getting screened means I have demonstrated enough interest and tailored my app relative to hundreds of people who were cut.

I get the possibly about not wowing them at the interview but... I was invited back for more interviews so I am thinking they were wowed (at least initially)?

I don't know providence. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. But when I am already running at top speed and the response is run faster, then I have nothing for you.

Your competition isn't the people behind you who were cut. It's the people ahead of you who got the job.

No, getting invited for more interviews doesn't mean you wowed them. And you can wow them at a first interview, but not a second or third. 

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2 minutes ago, providence said:

I can blame them for hiring based on nepotism. That's wrong. I believe adults should sink or swim on their own, not ride their parents' coattails. 

Ok agree to disagree. I really don’t see why a partner wouldn’t want their kid to take over their practice if the kid was in the position to do so. Other types of nepotism maybe not so much. (I wasn’t hired through nepotism, this is just my opinion). 

Edited by Disputes

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2 minutes ago, providence said:

I can blame them for hiring based on nepotism. That's wrong. I believe adults should sink or swim on their own, not ride their parents' coattails. 

Your competition isn't the people behind you who were cut. It's the people ahead of you who got the job.

No, getting invited for more interviews doesn't mean you wowed them. And you can wow them at a first interview, but not a second or third. 

Yep i don't think we disagree here.

So then when I go ask them for feedback please tell me why or why not about wowing the interviewers! Tell me why my interest is not being demonstrated enough!

But at the debrief, I am told everyone liked me, and my candidacy was solid. Just we had people ahead who were a better fit for the firm than you, H. You will thrive wherever you go, please keep me posted!

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Just now, hmyo said:

Yep i don't think we disagree here.

So then when I go ask them for feedback please tell me why or why not about wowing the interviewers! Tell me why my interest is not being demonstrated enough!

But at the debrief, I am told everyone liked me, and my candidacy was solid. Just we had people ahead who were a better fit for the firm than you, H. You will thrive wherever you go, please keep me posted!

"Wowing" is so subjective. They are telling you that you did not do that and the people who were a better fit wowed them while you didn't. There's no "why." It could be anything, from the rapport those people established with the interviewers to their answers to questions to something on their resume. You were solid and they were wow. 

You can take it or leave it, but just from your posts, I get the impression, right or wrong, that you "coasted" a bit. You assumed you had good grades, were a strong candidate, that getting lots of interviews was a sure thing, and that being a minority was an asset. You maybe had shallow reasons for wanting the job and not a specific burning desire to work at these firms - you were an OCI reject just looking for a job. And you couldn't completely hide all of that. That's what I think - I could very well be wrong, but if I'm right, a firm is never going to tell you all of that, because they're not consciously thinking any of that. They just don't respond quite as warmly and enthusiastically to you as they do to someone else. Going forward, just think about that and how you might approach applications and interviews slightly differently. 

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2 minutes ago, providence said:

"Wowing" is so subjective. They are telling you that you did not do that and the people who were a better fit wowed them while you didn't. There's no "why." It could be anything, from the rapport those people established with the interviewers to their answers to questions to something on their resume. You were solid and they were wow. 

You can take it or leave it, but just from your posts, I get the impression, right or wrong, that you "coasted" a bit. You assumed you had good grades, were a strong candidate, that getting lots of interviews was a sure thing, and that being a minority was an asset. You maybe had shallow reasons for wanting the job and not a specific burning desire to work at these firms - you were an OCI reject just looking for a job. And you couldn't completely hide all of that. That's what I think - I could very well be wrong, but if I'm right, a firm is never going to tell you all of that, because they're not consciously thinking any of that. They just don't respond quite as warmly and enthusiastically to you as they do to someone else. Going forward, just think about that and how you might approach applications and interviews slightly differently. 

See, I like that feedback more than anything I've been told. I suppose you are right that no recruiter will ever say that to me. I think there are things you said in there that ring true. Perhaps like you said, I can't hide that vibe if I'm emitting that negative energy that I am subconsciously doing.

 

 

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Well fwiw I hired a student few months ago because I happened to have the ability (ie enough work to give them and enough money to pay them). And obviously I am not hiring a year in advance. This meant I was interviewing 3Ls roughly one month before they graduated and asking them to start work almost immediately.

All of the candidates I interviewed were A and B+ level students with mooting and clinical work. Most had a summer job of some relevance. They were extremely strong contenders and all of them had spent 3L without articles lined up.

Here is how ludicrously close it was: the tiniest detail separated my choice from the others.

I did not hire the one who was impatient with the receptionist. I did not hire the one who informed me they had lots of interviews without me having asked. I did not hire the one who asked two questions that were answered in the actual job posting. And I did not hire the one who spent the entire interview with their sunglasses perched on top of their head. One of these people was just very... young. Another had a sort of smug, detached air. The third was fine - nothing stood out. The last one was so nervous I kept admiring how they were managing so well despite it and then realized I had spent ten minutes subconsciously trying to soothe them. 

The rest of these interviews went smoothly and well and I have no doubt any of these candidates could have done the job. But I hired the person who paid attention to detail and made me feel comfortable through some interesting conversation that I would want to work side by side with them on long trials. Fit is a real thing.

So two things: lots of chances left. People who will hire students next summer may not have turned their mind to hiring yet. Keep your ears open. 

And it can be the smallest thing that separates you. One question. A level of nerves. Sunglasses. Because sometimes that’s what it comes down to. 

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44 minutes ago, hmyo said:

See, I like that feedback more than anything I've been told. I suppose you are right that no recruiter will ever say that to me. I think there are things you said in there that ring true. Perhaps like you said, I can't hide that vibe if I'm emitting that negative energy that I am subconsciously doing.

 

 

Hey you also mentioned you had 9 interviews. I was in a similar position in the fall. I am not an extrovert and I found that because I was spending so much time out of my comfort zone, I was struggling to bring the best version of myself to interviews. I struck out as well. It’s a lot to handle and as crazy as it sounds I do think it puts you at a disadvantage when you are interviewing vs. someone that has less interviews but is more fresh and relaxed. Good luck with everything. 

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2 hours ago, hmyo said:

See, I like that feedback more than anything I've been told. I suppose you are right that no recruiter will ever say that to me. I think there are things you said in there that ring true. Perhaps like you said, I can't hide that vibe if I'm emitting that negative energy that I am subconsciously doing.

 

 

Arguing with Providence isn't going to make things better. The senior posters on this forum are self selected and tend to be a very particular type of person, with particular strengths and particular blindspots. Everyone tells you it all works out in the end, but this ignores that fact that some people get the very short end of the stick. Nobody dies in the articling process. Some people end up with an unpaid articling position and a 100k of debt, which in one sense has "worked out" but it has not in another sense.

Get angry. Get off an unproductive forum and do something with that anger to further your career. Find something that will bless your resume and do it. Start hedging your bets if law doesn't work out. Reach out to your network and let them know you are still looking regardless of how embarrassing it is. Let every failure sharpen your resolve. You may have been edged out due to a number of factors, but now you have to be hungrier than everyone else who got those positions. Make sure you end up in a better position than everyone who stuck to the traditional law school path, because there is opportunity in chaos. Start a blog, start a business, do SOMETHING.

Always remember that when someone gives you advice, they have absolutely no stake in it. Nobody actually cares about your success. You have to always be looking out for your own interests, and you always have to be investing in yourself. Do three things today that nobody else you are competing with is doing.

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I've found the regular posters here to be extremely helpful, and invested enough in my success to go above and beyond at times. Without this forum, I absolutely wouldn't be where I am with my experiences behind me and (albeit still limited) understanding of the legal industry. 

There has also been very helpful advice on this thread. The rest of your advice is good, but this forum certainly can and will help those that need and want it.

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I hesitate to give advise because I’m not any closer to my goals than hmyo is, but I felt I might have something to add because they seem to be dealing with this the same way I did. Maybe it’s a law student thing but when I got hit with tons of rejection I didn’t really know why and all I wanted was a specific reason. I got lots of general (and good) advice but I picked holes in all of it cause it wasn’t what I wanted to hear. So I went on for a little while bitter and angry but mostly not knowing what to do to improve. The only thing that really helped was some time to cool down, move on and talk to others to realize there’s more people on this boat then I thought. It really comes down to arbitrary things out of your control, if I present myself in the best way I can then eventually the things I can’t control will line up in my favour, it only has to happen once.

I don’t know if any of that is what anyone is going through or is at all similar. It helped me, maybe it could help others.

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3 minutes ago, msea said:

I hesitate to give advise because I’m not any closer to my goals than hmyo is, but I felt I might have something to add because they seem to be dealing with this the same way I did. Maybe it’s a law student thing but when I got hit with tons of rejection I didn’t really know why and all I wanted was a specific reason. I got lots of general (and good) advice but I picked holes in all of it cause it wasn’t what I wanted to hear. So I went on for a little while bitter and angry but mostly not knowing what to do to improve. The only thing that really helped was some time to cool down, move on and talk to others to realize there’s more people on this boat then I thought. It really comes down to arbitrary things out of your control, if I present myself in the best way I can then eventually the things I can’t control will line up in my favour, it only has to happen once.

I don’t know if any of that is what anyone is going through or is at all similar. It helped me, maybe it could help others.

I think that's a good way to see things

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