Jump to content
JohnP

Undergraduate Programs: mine is harder than yours: The Great Debate

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, epeeist said:

A trivial example would be the use of Google to look up what the hell "information science" is... :twisted:

Here's his bio, he looks to be more on the computer/library/information science side, not e.g. the U of Akron geographic information science side.

It was a rhetorical/sarcastic question to indicate my belief that it’s not really a “science” any more than political science is.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, providence said:

Math teaches you all of that. It does actually follow you around. It was very helpful to law school study. It does help with reading comprehension.

ugh...it was a joke. I thought it was funny you misread my post in context. I don't actually think you have a problem with reading comprehension.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, conge said:

It was a just joke. I'm pretty sure Providence (i) studied math and (ii) misread my post (as ppl do on internet forums when quickly scanning), or perhaps my post was unclear. 

No worries, I just think that in general the amount of reading comprehension involved in applied sciences is understated by a lot of people. The stack of articles on my desk right now attests to that. Half will say one thing, half will say the polar opposite, and I'll have to parse out the equal ground and compare it to my own data.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, conge said:

It was a just joke. I'm pretty sure Providence (i) studied math and (ii) misread my post (as ppl do on internet forums when quickly scanning), or perhaps my post was unclear. 

No I didn’t misread it, I disagreed with it, because I think math does do the things you seemed to be saying it doesn’t as much as the humanities do the: assisting everyday critical thinking/reading, and I think math does that even more than the humanities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, providence said:

Math teaches you all of that. It does actually follow you around. It was very helpful to law school study. It does help with reading comprehension.

Forensic Science follows you around a lot as well. It has reminded me to not produce fingerprints on TTC bus or train poles.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, conge said:

 I don't disagree with you, but I'm not talking about the ability to compare literature from the 1600s or criticize some political ideology but rather communicate clearly in writing, emotional intelligence, the ability to understand a moral/political concept without agreeing with it, etc. These items aren't directly on the syllabus of a BA, but I think they more prevalent in liberal arts type programs. 

You need to communicate clearly in writing as a scientist or mathematician if you want your ideas to be received. 

I would disagree that any program teaches emotional intelligence. That’s something innate to a person developed by their life experience. A lot of lawyers with BAs lack it. One of the people who I think has the highest level of it I’ve ever seen is my husband who took engineering in undergrad. In my anecdotal experience I haven’t noticed people with arts degrees being more insightful into emotions.

I think your third item is increasingly not happening in arts programs! But math does provide a framework for the same thing - the understanding and testing of theorems. 

Edited by providence
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, providence said:

No I didn’t misread it, I disagreed with it, because I think math does do the things you seemed to be saying it doesn’t as much as the humanities do the: assisting everyday critical thinking/reading, and I think math does that even more than the humanities.

It's not unusual to hear from English Lit majors that LSAT RC is difficult for them. One person told me it's because they have been trained to read to analyze and the types of things RC tests doesn't jive with this way of thinking. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Psychometronic said:

It's not unusual to hear from English Lit majors that LSAT RC is difficult for them. One person told me it's because they have been trained to read to analyze and the types of things RC tests doesn't jive with this way of thinking. 

I think math is the best prep there is for the MCAT or LSAT, including RC and definitely for LR and LG. But so many people tried to talk me out of taking it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

What's the difference in reading comprehension between reading a novel vs. an essay vs. a science publication? It's all high-level.

While I'm still going with it depends on the individual, I think a randomly selected person will likely find reading a novel and understanding its themes, discussing them in a book club,  etc., whatever, much easier than doing the same with a scientific article.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, ForensicAnthropology said:

Forensic Science follows you around a lot as well. It has reminded me to not produce fingerprints on TTC bus or train poles.

Why, are you planning on committing offences on the TTC?

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, ForensicAnthropology said:

Forensic Science follows you around a lot as well. It has reminded me to not produce fingerprints on TTC bus or train poles.

I would assume public transit is the best place to leave fingerprints at.

Edited by Psychometronic
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point is, there has been many discussions about this topic. There is no clear cut answer, nor will there ever be. 

Everyone just wants to bolster their opinion and defend that the degree they obtained is much more important/harder than everyone else’s.

tldr: Forensic Science at UofT is just way too hard. I suggest that no one do it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, epeeist said:

[emphasis added]

Yes, they can. Again, it depends on the individual. In engineering, I knew some people who found high-level mathematics much easier - both took them less time to study/do problems/assignments and they got much better marks, than in required outside electives in history and other humanities. They got stressed-out about history assignments and tests but not math. Etc. And I don't only mean people for whom English was a second language.

I was mostly the other way round, but what was trivially easy for me was difficult for some others and vice versa.

When people say colloquially that x is “harder” than y they mean that far more people struggle with x than y and a far greater portion of people who can do x can do y than vice versa. 

It’s like how everyone would agree that it’s harder to make the NBA than to learn to bowl 200 even if there is some NBA player who just can’t get the knack of bowling for the life of him. And yet nobody can really think that making the NBA isn’t harder than bowling a 200, and they don’t reply “oh well actually I know this NBA player who sucks at bowling and finds hitting 60% of his 3 pointers easier.”

Likewise, everybody knows that math and physics are conceptually more difficult than history and law. 

Edited by NYCLawyer
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, providence said:

You need to communicate clearly in writing as a scientist or mathematician if you want your ideas to be received. 

I would disagree that any program teaches emotional intelligence. That’s something innate to a person developed by their life experience. A lot of lawyers with BAs lack it. One of the people who I think has the highest level of it I’ve ever seen is my husband who took engineering in undergrad. In my anecdotal experience I haven’t noticed people with arts degrees being more insightful into emotions.

I think your third item is increasingly not happening in arts programs! But math does provide a framework for the same thing - the understanding and testing of theorems. 

Human Relations at Concordia. It's all group work, "I Statements" group dynamics and how your self is injected into relationships. It's a neat program though the majority of people are wanna be business students who don't do math.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, NYCLawyer said:

When people say colloquially that x is “harder” than y they mean that far more people struggle with x than y and a far greater portion of people who can do x can do y than vice versa. 

It’s like how everyone would agree that it’s harder to make the NBA than to learn to bowl 200 even if there is some NBA player who just can’t get the knack of bowling for the life of him. And yet nobody can really think that making the NBA isn’t harder than bowling a 200, and they don’t reply “oh well actually I know this NBA player who sucks at bowling and finds hitting 60% of his 3 pointers easier.”

Likewise, everybody knows that math and physics are conceptually more difficult than history and law. 

In this thread, presumably we're discussing what's easier to get good marks in for the purpose of getting into law school. Or at least, that's an underlying principle. So along those lines, people should consider what's easier for them to get good marks in, not what's easier for some proportion of the population.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, epeeist said:

In this thread, presumably we're discussing what's easier to get good marks in for the purpose of getting into law school. Or at least, that's an underlying principle. So along those lines, people should consider what's easier for them to get good marks in, not what's easier for some proportion of the population.

Ok well then I guess you can chalk my contribution up with the part of the discussion than isn’t just about that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, NYCLawyer said:

When people say colloquially that x is “harder” than y they mean that far more people struggle with x than y and a far greater portion of people who can do x can do y than vice versa. 

It’s like how everyone would agree that it’s harder to make the NBA than to learn to bowl 200 even if there is some NBA player who just can’t get the knack of bowling for the life of him. And yet nobody can really think that making the NBA isn’t harder than bowling a 200, and they don’t reply “oh well actually I know this NBA player who sucks at bowling and finds hitting 60% of his 3 pointers easier.”

Likewise, everybody knows that math and physics are conceptually more difficult than history and law. 

But it seems everybody doesn't know that according to this thread. You seem to be saying "math and physics are harder because they're harder". Yeah, obviously everyone knows that it's more difficult to be in the NBA than to bowl a 200+ game because there is a significant fraction of people who bowl that can bowl a 200 vs. the small fraction of people who play basketball that are in the NBA. What about bowling multiple 300s? Completely different skillset, maybe the same portion of the population, very little overlap between the groups. In my mind that would be akin to top minds in science vs. the top minds in English. If you polled the general public they'd probably conclude that science is more difficult than English, but they could also easily be underestimating the difficulty of the latter program.

If we're talking about the percentage of the population that actually HAS each degree as a measure of difficulty, then according to http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-012-x/2011001/tbl/tbl02-eng.cfm visual arts is the most difficult University program while business is the easiest.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, NYCLawyer said:

Ok well then I guess you can chalk my contribution up with the part of the discussion than isn’t just about that. 

E.g. dick-measuring?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

But it seems everybody doesn't know that according to this thread. You seem to be saying "math and physics are harder because they're harder". Yeah, obviously everyone knows that it's more difficult to be in the NBA than to bowl a 200+ game because there is a significant fraction of people who bowl that can bowl a 200 vs. the small fraction of people who play basketball that are in the NBA. What about bowling multiple 300s? Completely different skillset, maybe the same portion of the population, very little overlap between the groups. In my mind that would be akin to top minds in science vs. the top minds in English. If you polled the general public they'd probably conclude that science is more difficult than English, but they could also easily be underestimating the difficulty of the latter program.

If we're talking about the percentage of the population that actually HAS each degree as a measure of difficulty, then according to http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-012-x/2011001/tbl/tbl02-eng.cfm visual arts is the most difficult University program while business is the easiest.

The proportion of people who can complete an English degree is much higher than the proportion of people who can complete a math degree. This obvious to anyone who has sat through a math class and an English class. You’re quite correct that I’m not providing any statistical evidence for this. It’s obvious to anyone and I can’t be bothered. I don’t mind if you disagree. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, TrqTTs said:

E.g. dick-measuring?

I guess you could say that. I didn’t major in either math or physics so I don’t really have a dick in this, um, sword fight. I just find myself in agreement with the obvious things are obvious side of the debate. 

Besides which, in my only post that isn’t responding to others questioning me I said that being good at conceptually difficult things is overrated. I’m a lawyer. I don’t deal in difficult concepts. What do I care if I’m good at them or not? 

Edited by NYCLawyer
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Recent Posts

    • Wake up in the morning, I got murder on my mind.
    • Dal seems to place pretty well in Toronto, from what I've seen and heard. That'd be my choice though obviously do more research. 
    • I'd go to Dal over Windsor 
    • I started off taking handwritten notes, as I've done it throughout my undergrad/postgrad. I will say that taking notes on a laptop is vital because law is different than many other fields (esp. the arts). 1. You will need to take notes on a lot of cases, and there is specific wording all the time that you may not have time to write down. If you only take handwritten notes, you will find yourself writing more than 4 pages of notes per lecture - good luck organizing them all. By the time midterms came around in my first sem, I had over 100 pages of notes and making them into outlines was a nightmare. 2. Almost every class has participation marks. There is no way you're going to be able to answer consistently fast enough (everyone's gonna have their hands up by then) if you're not able to CTRL+F notes from the previous week.  3. Mentioned this already but you need to make outlines - absolutely critical for exams. You're going to waste a lot of time typing your handwritten notes into word files. Also, when you have over 100 pages of notes you tend to misplace a page,  which can really ruin the flow of your notes. Now there are some programs you can use to turn notes into word files, but good luck writing legibly enough for the program to read when you're writing so fast.  Now maybe you've watched the paper chase and think, "hey if harvard students from the 70s can take handwritten notes so can I". Well, that was when there was a level playing field where everyone took handwritten notes. Now, things have changed and if you dont believe me, you can give it a try. 
    • I was born with glass bones and paper skin. Every morning, I break my legs and every afternoon, I break my arms. At night I lay in agony until my heart attacks put me to sleep. 

×
×
  • Create New...