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JohnP

Undergraduate Programs: mine is harder than yours: The Great Debate

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I don't have a STEM background, but one of the smartest people I know graduated with a B+ average from engineering science at UofT. She'd run rings around most of the people I know in law school. Law schools claim they don't take majors into account, but I think anyone would be mad to equate a GPA from an engineering science grad with the GPA from a gender studies major. As long as your STEM is the hard sciences, and not psychology, I think you have a shot, especially if you nail the LSAT. I know American schools put a lot of weight on the LSAT.

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18 minutes ago, artsydork said:

Not sure why people think gender studies is an easy field.

Yeah, why would anyone go out of their way to belittle the investigation and critique of dominant concepts of oh shit

(at least the sociologists get a reprieve)

Edited by whereverjustice

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1 hour ago, artsydork said:

One of the smartest people that I know had a poli sci degree. My gold medalist had an english lit degree. Anecdotal evidence is just that.

Not sure why people think gender studies is an easy field. Y'all ever read Judith Butler? Haraway? It's fairly inaccessible.

I took 1 women's studies elective in 2nd year cuz, it's women's studies, right? Wrong. It was quite difficult. Never again lol. 

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2 hours ago, artsydork said:

One of the smartest people that I know had a poli sci degree. My gold medalist had an english lit degree. Anecdotal evidence is just that.

Not sure why people think gender studies is an easy field. Y'all ever read Judith Butler? Haraway? It's fairly inaccessible.

I knew my post would ruffle some feathers. Forget anecdotal evidence, just look at the unadjusted average grades for STEM majors versus non-STEM majors. It was not uncommon in some STEM courses, at UTSG, to see average mid-term exam grades of 37%. Tell me how many gender studies majors saw those averages in their first year mid-terms?

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2 minutes ago, JohnP said:

I knew my post would ruffle some feathers. Forget anecdotal evidence, just look at the unadjusted average grades for STEM majors versus non-STEM majors. It was not uncommon in some STEM courses, at UTSG, to see average mid-term exam grades of 37%. Tell me how many gender studies majors saw those averages in their first year mid-terms?

Isn’t that more because high schools do a really bad job of giving students the basic math skills they need for university study?

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11 minutes ago, providence said:

Isn’t that more because high schools do a really bad job of giving students the basic math skills they need for university study?

This one is hugely dependent on your school. We had one killer math teacher that petitioned to create a stream for the best students such that he'd be able to go his own pace. By the time I left, the only new material in the entire first year calc curriculum was ODEs. Meanwhile, I had people in my classes who barely understood the power rule.

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4 hours ago, providence said:

Isn’t that more because high schools do a really bad job of giving students the basic math skills they need for university study?

...and they do such a good job of teaching students how to think analytically and write?

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9 minutes ago, JohnP said:

...and they do such a good job of teaching students how to think analytically and write?

Nope, but there are particular problems with the teaching of math and in math it is so important to understand basic concepts before going to harder things.

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17 hours ago, JohnP said:

 As long as your STEM is the hard sciences, and not psychology.

 

This is unrelated but I think it's unfair that psychology gets a bad rep as not a hard science. There are two streams of psychology, one is the counselling/therapy field, definitely not hard science. Then there is cognitive science, that is all programming and heavy statistics. They are completely unrelated but get merged together. 

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32 minutes ago, livingonaprayer82 said:

This is unrelated but I think it's unfair that psychology gets a bad rep as not a hard science. There are two streams of psychology, one is the counselling/therapy field, definitely not hard science. Then there is cognitive science, that is all programming and heavy statistics. They are completely unrelated but get merged together. 

It’s not a hard science. Hard sciences have to do with the natural world, natural phenomena, experiments with objectively measurable results, etc. Soft sciences have to do with human behaviour and more subjective experiments. Now that’s not to say that hard sciences are better or harder than soft sciences, which some people do assume.

 

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18 minutes ago, providence said:

It’s not a hard science. Hard sciences have to do with the natural world, natural phenomena, experiments with objectively measurable results, etc. Soft sciences have to do with human behaviour and more subjective experiments. Now that’s not to say that hard sciences are better or harder than soft sciences, which some people do assume.

 

I agree with this, however cognitive science is objective measurements of natural phenomena, such as models of memory. Not behaviour. I am not talking about social psychology where they measure feelings and personality. This is why I think there should be a distinction in the field itself. 

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13 minutes ago, livingonaprayer82 said:

I agree with this, however cognitive science is objective measurements of natural phenomena, such as models of memory. Not behaviour. I am not talking about social psychology where they measure feelings and personality. This is why I think there should be a distinction in the field itself. 

I would say it is interdisciplinary with elements of both hard and soft sciences.

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14 minutes ago, providence said:

I would say it is interdisciplinary with elements of both hard and soft sciences.

I agree. The way most if not all psych programs are set up is exactly this way and therefore fair and understandable that they are considered as such by law schools. The problem is within the field itself. 

Edited by livingonaprayer82

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16 minutes ago, livingonaprayer82 said:

 

I agree. The way most if not all psych programs are set up is exactly this way. That is the unfair part I think, they should really differentitate. 

There has been a related idea that sciences: hard to soft are a hierarchy/spectrum rather than an either/or. If one prescribes to this perspective, permit me to speculate that social and behavioural psychology lies closer to the soft end of the spectrum, while cognitive lies closer to the hard. Biology under this prescribed view should be subject to a similar perspective, yet it does not get the same admonishment (if you consider 'soft' as a term of conjecture).
 

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1 hour ago, livingonaprayer82 said:

This is unrelated but I think it's unfair that psychology gets a bad rep as not a hard science. There are two streams of psychology, one is the counselling/therapy field, definitely not hard science. Then there is cognitive science, that is all programming and heavy statistics. They are completely unrelated but get merged together. 

I did a Psych degree and I absolutely suck at the hard sciences. I wouldn't say Psychology gets a bad rep. It just doesn't fit cleanly under STEM. Even neuropsych, which deals more in the hard science than the soft science still toes the line. My opinion at least. I'm open to being wrong about this. 

Edited by Psychometronic

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5 minutes ago, Psychometronic said:

I did a Psych degree and I absolutely suck at the hard sciences. I wouldn't say Psychology gets a bad rep. It just doesn't fit cleanly under STEM. Even neuropsych, which deals more in the hard science than the soft science still toes the line. My opinion at least. I'm open to being wrong about this. 

I don't think you're wrong at all. There are just completely different methods of experimentation within psychology and they shouldn't be part of the same program. A social psychologist would never have the skills to do computational models of memory, yet they both end up with the same degree. 

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Forget all y’all, mine is longer and harder than anyone’s...

What, we’re talking about undergrad programs instead of penises?  You sure?  Sure feels like of a dick measuring contest.

 

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6 hours ago, JohnP said:

I knew my post would ruffle some feathers. Forget anecdotal evidence, just look at the unadjusted average grades for STEM majors versus non-STEM majors. It was not uncommon in some STEM courses, at UTSG, to see average mid-term exam grades of 37%. Tell me how many gender studies majors saw those averages in their first year mid-terms?

Why would we look at the unadjusted average grades?  Surely the adjusted grades are what matters (aside, you think final grades in the arts and sciences are unadjusted?  I once marked an econ final where the average was 60%. That was not the final class average).

Do we actually have any evidence that there are system difference in Aveverage GPA/distribution  between programs.  

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I had to memorize the appearances, artists, titles, dates, and relevant facts of 144 works of art for a midterm in undergrad once. I think the final required around 120 artworks. 

Fight me, STEM students. 

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