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Joker

Chances- Highly Unlikely? (2.9, 3.48)

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Hello,

I wanted to ask for advice regarding my situation. I just finished up my final year in April and my OLSAS CGPA is hard to predict but it could be under 3.0 just around the 2.9 mark. My last two year will come out to 3.48 (which I also know is not ideal). I really messed up this last semester by taking some difficult courses. I also wrote the LSAT twice without proper preparation and scored 142 and 144. I believe I can do better by dedicating much more time over the summer, with the aim of writing in September. While I know my stats suck a lot, I was wondering if I did much better on the LSAT would I have a chance at schools like Queens and Western (or really anywhere in Canada to be honest) for example? I applied to ten schools and have had 5 rejections so far and no word from the other 5 yet. If I don't get in this year (which is highly likely), what would you suggest? I am also considering the UK route in case because if I can't get in here, I think it might be better to get started somewhere at least. My reference letters and personal statements were good I think as I have some interesting extra-curricular activities and such that I spoke of. I appreciate any help and feedback in advance!

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Hello,

The answer to your question is it depends. It depends on where you want to go to school. It depends on how well you do on the LSAT. With a 160+ you would get in somewhere. The Alberta universities average your LSAT so that might not be realistic. 

If you're really set on law school, save yourself the hassle of being accredited after studying overseas, and go kill the LSAT and attend school here. 

 

With your scores you have a lot of work to do but it is doable. I recommend listening to the Thinking LSAT podcast. It helped me adjust my mindset and relax while writing the exam.

 

Good luck.

 

 

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Your chances aren't very good. Your LSAT is way below median and your sub-3.0 GPA is also way below median.

You'd need a 160+ LSAT and applications to L2 schools. But given your prior LSAT scores, it doesn't seem likely. 

I would also caution you from pursuing studies overseas. The road to come back here and practice as a lawyer will be very long and tedious. 

There is also no good prospect for success either. 

You should seriously reconsider your plans to go to law school. I'm just trying to be blunt and honest with you. 

Edited by jokesonyou

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OP - I don't see how the last two comments on here are constructive at all. If you want to go to law school, and are determined, then that's a choice you have to make for yourself (to keep at it), but you do have to seriously consider the possibility of not getting in. It may also take more than 1 shot with applications, and in your case even a 3rd LSAT write (I've seen >3 writes on here as well). Regardless, the posters (especially 2 OL's) are not in a position to tell you to reconsider what you want. Frankly, it is unlikely with those 2 LSAT scores, but if you really put the time and effort in and hit a ~158+, there is a chance at an L2 school. You would just have to look further into whether they average LSAT scores, or take the highest. Alberta is an L2 school, and they also take grad marks for face value, so that could potentially boost your GPA (if that's an option). 

@harveyspecter993 Honestly as a 0L I don't understand how you get off telling someone what law school is or is not, and whether someone should pursue a career in law. You haven't experienced it first-hand, nor job applications, interviews, or work as a lawyer (and neither have I, but I don't pretend to). You can advise that it may be an unsuccessful endeavour, but that's not what your post comes across as. 

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30 minutes ago, SciLaw said:



@harveyspecter993 Honestly as a 0L I don't understand how you get off telling someone what law school is or is not, and whether someone should pursue a career in law. You haven't experienced it first-hand, nor job applications, interviews, or work as a lawyer (and neither have I, but I don't pretend to). You can advise that it may be an unsuccessful endeavour, but that's not what your post comes across as. 

If someone has a sub 3.0 and sub 150, their time would be best spent looking at options other than law school. 

Edited by harveyspecter993
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2 hours ago, Joker said:

I also wrote the LSAT twice without proper preparation and scored 142 and 144.

How much did you prep before writing those two times? If they were cold writes with no prep, there is potential for you to do better (although I can't understand why you'd write cold twice). If you studied, it depends on how much studying you did. Some people simply can't break into the 160s or upper 150s even with a lot of effort. Either way, it's worth a shot. I recommend 7Sage.

Edited by Psychometronic

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An L2 of 3.48 isn't bad but your cGPA kind of compels you to focus mostly on L2 schools. That being said, L2 schools like U of A, U of C, and Dal (I believe Dal takes the better of your cGPa/L2) are likely looking for an LSAT score around the low to mid 160s given your GPA. U of A will be rather unlikely as they take an average of all your LSAT scores but maybe look into Calgary or Windsor as they abide by a more 'holistic' assessments of their applicants, which may bring your EC's more into play. Although, I think extra curriculars don't play as big of a role as some people might assume they do but they're definitely good to have.

I concur with a couple of the above commenters in saying you should really work on improving on the LSAT. You'd be surprised how quickly you can improve. For instance, my weakest section was logic games but I went from missing 7 or 8 per section to only 2-3 after a few weeks of consistent practice. Watch 7Sage vides on games you don't understand until you understand them, then practice them on your own, games of a similar nature will start to click.

I'd advise that you not go for law school in the UK for the same reasons 420 mentioned. 

All in all, I think if you really work hard on studying for the LSAT, you can give yourself a shot. At the same time, it's important to be honest with yourself about where you stand. With an improved LSAT, I'd recommend that you look into U of C, Windsor, and maybe even Dalhousie. Queens and Western will be tough mainly due to your cGPA and previous LSATs but thankfully there's lots of good schools out here. I think you'll need an LSAT around 160+ but hopefully you'll get there in time! Give yourself enough time to prepare and work on your weak spots and you should see significant improvement. 

Good luck!

Edited by TheAnswer
*I missed that you said you completed your degree so my suggestion to try to boost your GPA does not apply.
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As other people have said it will take a lot of work, but it’s doable. Study for the LSAT like crazy and focus on schools with L2/B2 or that have generous drops (Manitoba, etc.). From what I gather, going overseas for school costs more and hurts your job prospects after school (the firms know you went overseas because you couldn’t get into a Canadian law school). I would buckle down and study for the LSAT like crazy. Personally I would also push off doing it again until the December write to give yourself a few extra months and you would still be eligible for the next application cycle. Also don’t bother applying to U of A. They average your LSAT and are a purely numbers based school. You are better off focusing on holistic schools, ones with generous drops, and the other L2/B2 ones. 

Edit: To add to this, if you’re not scoring near perfect on logic games that is an area where you can greatly increase your score. I wasn’t sure if I was getting in anywhere this year so since January I’ve been working on mastering logic games and now I’m PTing in the mid 160s. It’s the section you can surely improve on the most and can greatly help your score. 

Edited by Bolieve
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Just from reading past acceptance threads..its doable. Up that LSAT and beef up your extra curriculars as well. Good luck and don't give up!

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Hello everyone, I really appreciate all of the feedback, and all of the encouragement as well, that means a lot and has motivated me further. I completely forgot to mention that I applied through access/special categories, where possible. After having a psycho-educational assessment done after 1st year, some issues were uncovered which rendered me eligible for those categories. I don't know how much of a difference that fact makes but I thought it was important to let you know. For everyone asking about my previous two LSAT attempts, yes I screwed up, but I did not put in nearly as much as time as I needed to, I got really consumed at school (wrote in December and Februrary) and put in way less hours than needed. I believe I rushed February as well without taking the time to study much at all, I barely went through reading comp or logic games and was heavily focused on logical reasoning because I was short on time. I realize that was a huge mistake, and I should've just held off on it. I am glad that there is potential to improve, I believe I can certainly bring my logic games and logical reasoning sections up with much more focused studying. As somebody suggested, my plan is to get the basic 7sage course, use the LSAT trainer, and go through all 30 preptests that I have bought. Please let me know if anybody has any further feedback or advice, thanks again!

Edited by Joker
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2 minutes ago, Joker said:

Hello everyone, I really appreciate all of the feedback, and all of the encouragement as well, that means a lot and has motivated me further. I completely forgot to mention that I applied through access/special categories, where possible. After having a psycho-educational assessment done after 1st year, some issues were uncovered which rendered me eligible for those categories. I don't know how much of a difference that fact make but I thought it was important to let you know. For everyone asking about my previous two LSAT attempts, yes I screwed up, but I did not put in nearly as much as time as I needed to, I got really consumed at school (wrote in December and Februrary) and put in way less hours than needed. I believe I rushed February as well without taking the time to study at all, I barely went through reading comp or logic games and was heavily focused on logical reasoning because I was short on time. I realize that was a huge mistake, and I should've just held off on it. I am glad that there is potential to improve, I believe I can certainly bring my logic games and logical reasoning sections up with much more focused studying. As somebody suggested, my plan is to get the basic 7sage course, use the LSAT trainer, and go through all 30 preptests that I have bought. Please let me know if anybody has any further feedback or advice, thanks again!

I highly recommend the Oxford prep course. I took it plus the free re-take. Its not cheap. But it helped me a lot. 

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9 hours ago, SciLaw said:

OP - I don't see how the last two comments on here are constructive at all. If you want to go to law school, and are determined, then that's a choice you have to make for yourself (to keep at it), but you do have to seriously consider the possibility of not getting in. It may also take more than 1 shot with applications, and in your case even a 3rd LSAT write (I've seen >3 writes on here as well). Regardless, the posters (especially 2 OL's) are not in a position to tell you to reconsider what you want. Frankly, it is unlikely with those 2 LSAT scores, but if you really put the time and effort in and hit a ~158+, there is a chance at an L2 school. You would just have to look further into whether they average LSAT scores, or take the highest. Alberta is an L2 school, and they also take grad marks for face value, so that could potentially boost your GPA (if that's an option). 

@harveyspecter993 Honestly as a 0L I don't understand how you get off telling someone what law school is or is not, and whether someone should pursue a career in law. You haven't experienced it first-hand, nor job applications, interviews, or work as a lawyer (and neither have I, but I don't pretend to). You can advise that it may be an unsuccessful endeavour, but that's not what your post comes across as. 

There comes a point though where desire isn't enough. It doesn't matter how badly you want to go. What matters is that you have good enough stats to get in. 

A gpa AND lsat that low is also troubling because even if OP does, by some miracle, get an offer in Canada, I'm not convinced they'll be able to cope with the demands of law school. 

You don't have to be in law school or a lawyer already to see why that's true. 

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11 hours ago, harveyspecter993 said:

You need to look at alternate career options. Law school isn't the be and end all you think it is.

No he doesn't, go to Australia, not everyone here has to aim to become a Bay Street Lawyer, I am sure he has the moral integrity to represent people and study law more effectively. Why does everyone crush everyone's dreams on these forums, I really don't get it. You can say you're being realistic and just looking out for this guy, but from the message the guy really had his hopes set on Law and like sure not everyone who hopes, gets everything they want in life. But he doesn't have to choose another field. You can go to Australia, take a year to convert your Australian law degree to Canadian and that's that. I know of a couple of people who took that route. It is much more expensive. But I'm sure you will make a great lawyer if you dedicate yourself to improving upon your studies, which I believe you intend do. Past performance is not indicative of future success, no matter what all these regular guys continuously post. Shout out you know who you are. Although, you will have to study a lot for the LSAT and gain a much better score. Gonna take a lot of work, but doesn't mean you have to give up on your dream.

Edited by aaronl
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17 minutes ago, aaronl said:

No he doesn't, go to Australia, not everyone here has to aim to become a Bay Street Lawyer, I am sure he has the moral integrity to represent people and study law more effectively. Why does everyone crush everyone's dreams on these forums, I really don't get it. You can say you're being realistic and just looking out for this guy, but from the message the guy really had his hopes set on Law and like sure not everyone who hopes, gets everything they want in life. But he doesn't have to choose another field. You can go to Australia, take a year to convert your Australian law degree to Canadian and that's that. I know of a couple of people who took that route. It is much more expensive. But I'm sure you will make a great lawyer if you dedicate yourself to improving upon your studies, which I believe you intend do. Past performance is not indicative of future success, no matter what all these regular guys continuously post. Shout out you know who you are.

Foreign programs exist to milk desperate Canadians who can't get into a Canadian law school. What is this obsession some people have with getting into law school? Why are they so insistent on three more years of schools when their previous four have been such a struggle? If one has not performed well in undergrad, then what makes them think that they have the ability to succeed in law school? Combine that with a failure to even hit 145 after two tries when it's common to hit somewhere in the 150s on a diagnostic. Law school is extremely intellectually rigorous and is not a dumping ground for people who failed to achieve during their undergraduate degree. OP needs to be honest with him/herself and you need to stop giving such people false hope.

Edited by harveyspecter993
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1 minute ago, aaronl said:

No he doesn't, go to Australia, not everyone here has to aim to become a Bay Street Lawyer, I am sure he has the moral integrity to represent people and study law more effectively. Why does everyone crush everyone's dreams on these forums, I really don't get it. You can say you're being realistic and just looking out for this guy, but from the message the guy really had his hopes set on Law and like sure not everyone who hopes, gets everything they want in life. But he doesn't have to choose another field. You can go to Australia, take a year to convert your Australian law degree to Canadian and that's that. I know of a couple of people who took that route. It is much more expensive. But I'm sure you will make a great lawyer if you dedicate yourself to improving upon your studies, which I believe you intend do. Past performance is not indicative of future success, no matter what all these regular guys continuously post. Shout out you know who you are.

Going to Australia is not only expensive but also a much more difficult path to a career as a lawyer. It is not just taking a year to convert your degree and that's that. It takes many people much more than a year. And many people who go to Bond are looked at unfavourably by employers, and not just those on Bay Street.

You don't know the OP. How do you know s/he has "the moral integrity to represent people and study law more effectively?" Because s/he said they want to be a lawyer and has good ECs? So? 

Actually, I do believe that past performance is indicative of future success. Obviously there are exceptions, where someone has had specific challenges that they've been able to overcome or was in an area of work or study not suited to their abilities, etc. But generally, we are in a profession where success is heavily dependent on your reputation ie. what you have done in the past. 

Also, law school is the kind of program that requires steady, cumulative engagement. You don't have to spend hours and hours, but you have to understand the first concept because the second is related to it. This takes discipline and focus. Tellingly, the OP is relying on ECs at the expense of grades and said their grades slipped "because they took difficult courses." If they can only get mediocre grades taking easy classes and get low grades when they take difficult ones, and didn't focus their effort on grades and the LSAT, not once but twice, (if they wanted to go to law school so badly and knew they needed to study for the LSAT, how did they not have time?) how does this demonstrate that they can handle law school classes, which are generally more difficult and certainly not easier than undergrad courses, and also have a more competitive field of people taking them? 

No one is trying to "crush anyone's dreams." But there is some responsibility to accurately represent what law school and law practice are like and how difficult a path it is to study abroad and come back to Canada. 

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11 minutes ago, aaronl said:

No he doesn't, go to Australia, not everyone here has to aim to become a Bay Street Lawyer

I understand how tempting it is, and reasonable it seems, to think that articling/new call struggles are limited to the Bay Street Corporate guys. I thought that way when I went in to law school. But that's not how it is. Capable people struggle to find lawyer jobs all over the place, and it's even harder coming from a foreign law school.

14 minutes ago, aaronl said:

You can go to Australia, take a year to convert your Australian law degree to Canadian

Let's be clear: This is not a thing. The NCA does not "covert your Australian law degree to Canadian"; it allows you to enter the licensing process despite not having a Canadian law degree. You will still be job seeking in competition with people who have three times as much exposure to Canadian law as you. And, for many employers, the foreign degree (especially the ones known to target Canadians) signals that you weren't able to get into a Canadian law school. I have heard plenty of articling search horror stories. But the worst of them were those from people who went abroad for law school.

And I don't usually call people out like this, but 0Ls need to tread really damn carefully giving law career advice. Especially when they close with an exhortation to ignore those who have useful experience.

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1 hour ago, Inconspicuous said:

There comes a point though where desire isn't enough. It doesn't matter how badly you want to go. What matters is that you have good enough stats to get in. 

A gpa AND lsat that low is also troubling because even if OP does, by some miracle, get an offer in Canada, I'm not convinced they'll be able to cope with the demands of law school. 

You don't have to be in law school or a lawyer already to see why that's true. 

 

If OPs stats didn't change, then absolutely--pure desire is not going to increase their chances of admission and it would likely become a fruitless exercise. But an L2 of ~3.5  and a higher LSAT (~158+), has been accepted at a number of schools (not uncommon on these threads). 

@Inconspicuous I may be wrong, but another 0L judging how successful another poster will be in law school? Did I miss something or have you seen their entire application? Do you know the poster personally? While a 3.5 L2 is not a stat to pretentiously brag about, and wont get you into U of T, it still works out to around 80% which isn't horrible. 

This seems like another instance of pretentiously high stat posters trying to tell people what they should do with their lives, which may or may not be helpful advice, under the guise of frankness. 

OP - like the other constructive posters are saying, you need a higher LSAT to give yourself a chance. Whether you want to keep pursing law school, and if you would be able to cope with the demands of law school is something you have to assess for yourself, from a realistic perspective.  

2 minutes ago, harveyspecter993 said:

Foreign programs exist to milk desperate Canadians who can't get into a Canadian law school. What is this obsession some people have with getting into law school? Why are they so insistent on three more years of schools when their previous four have been such a struggle? If one has not performed well in undergrad, then what makes them think that they have the ability to succeed in law school? Combine that with a failure to even hit 145 after two tries when it'c common to hit somewhere in the 150s on a diagnostic. Law school is extremely intellectually rigorous and is not a dumping ground for people who failed to achieve during their undergraduate degree. OP needs to be honest with him/herself and you need to stop giving such people false hope.

@harveyspecter993 Didn't you have an obsession which didn't get you in last year, but in this year after doing much better on the LSAT (I may be mixing this up). Now you're high and mighty? 

@providence I'll take your advice for face value because you're not a 0L, and you're not telling OP what to do except give realistic expectations, for which they should seriously take into account. 

 

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Just now, SciLaw said:

If OPs stats didn't change, then absolutely--pure desire is not going to increase their chances of admission and it would likely become a fruitless exercise. But an L2 of ~3.5  and a higher LSAT (~158+), has been accepted at a number of schools (not uncommon on these threads). 

@Inconspicuous I may be wrong, but another 0L judging how successful another poster will be in law school? Did I miss something or have you seen their entire application? Do you know the poster personally? While a 3.5 L2 is not a stat to pretentiously brag about, and wont get you into U of T, it still works out to around 80% which isn't horrible. 

This seems like another instance of pretentiously high stat posters trying to tell people what they should do with their lives, which may or may not be helpful advice, under the guise of frankness. 

OP - like the other constructive posters are saying, you need a higher LSAT to give yourself a chance. Whether you want to keep pursing law school, and if you would be able to cope with the demands of law school is something you have to assess for yourself, from a realistic perspective.  

@harveyspecter993 Didn't you have an obsession which didn't get you in last year, but in this year after doing much better on the LSAT (I may be mixing this up). Now you're high and mighty? 

@providence I'll take your advice for face value because you're not a 0L, and you're not telling OP what to do except give realistic expectations, for which they should seriously take into account. 

 

What? This was my first application cycle and I got early offers from all my schools. (Apart from Ottawa because they were delaying and so I ended up accepting Osgoode in early January without hearing back from them).

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28 minutes ago, aaronl said:

 I am sure he has the moral integrity to represent people and study law more effectively. 

How are you sure of this?

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