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US Law School Ultimate Bar Pass Rate

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18 hours ago, Ryn said:

A bit late on my comment, but I wanted to add that Osgoode had a joint program with NYU about a decade ago but it was discontinued because there was nearly no demand for it. Turns out, Osgoode grads do fine in NY and can become licensed in the US without needing an additional, expensive JD*. I think the Windsor dual program is an obvious cash grab and it's no secret that it's generally seen as a poor choice by pretty much anyone. Still better than going to the States and trying to come back, though.

* The JD/LLM program with NYU still exists, if I remember right, but that's a different thing altogether.

I mean, to be fair, the US system makes the bar the barrier to licensing. In Canada, it's getting in to law school in the first place. Relatively speaking, the bar exam, even in Ontario, is easy compared to any of the US state bars.

NY and CA and a few other states (MA + ?) generally allow those with foreign common-law degrees of equivalent quality to write the bar exam without additional education. But especially for reciprocity between jurisdictions, if you don't have a law degree from an ABA-approved school, moving later can be much more difficult. And the ABA doesn't allow for credit to be given for studies before enrolling in a US ABA-approved law school, hence the reason for the joint program (i.e. the concurrent enrollment allows transfer credit to be given for Windsor courses, if one graduated first, you'd get much less credit at Detroit Mercy). All this is from memory, don't rely on it, etc.

So I don't see the joint program as being a simple cash grab, it may not be of interest for the NY/CA or Bay only folks, but especially for those with US citizenship or an interest in any of the other states, it could be of benefit. Alberta/Calgary also have joint degree programs?

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18 hours ago, erinl2 said:



Knowing several people who have written both Ontario and various different state bar exams, that hasn't been their experience, with the exception of California.

When did they write, approximately? And do they find multiple-choice exams particularly stressful, as some people I've met do?

I wrote NY and Ontario years ago, and I think both have become much easier (Ontario becoming multiple-choice, and NY moving to the UBE, which still includes multistate essay questions which I see as harder than multiple choice). But at least at the time, one NY day included six long-form answer questions that could be on any and all areas of NY law, plus a brief NY multiple choice exam, and the second day was the MBE (multiple choice). And this was all closed-book. Ontario, after NY, and open book? Far, far easier. Though admittedly having gone to law school in Ontario I knew more of the Ontario law from law school. With volunteer tutoring for the current Ontario bar ads, I can't see the Ontario exam as more difficult than New York.

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There is a lot of misinformation about UDM in this thread. People are bashing UDM using ABA-required statistics which do not categorize Canadian articling students as being sufficiently employed. Since UDM's enrollment is almost half Canadian, this puts UDM at a disadvantage in the statistics. If other Canadian law schools were assessed by the same criteria, they would fare poorly as well.

Nonetheless, I do understand. I know you Canadians like to hate, but I hope you will all find a way to calm down. It gets pathetic at times.

Full disclosure: I am a dual student, so I am biased... though I notice that everyone else on this thread considers themselves experts despite generally having limited exposure to the program.

Warmest regards,
BlueberryTimbit

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7 minutes ago, BlueberryTimbit said:

There is a lot of misinformation about UDM in this thread. People are bashing UDM using ABA-required statistics which do not categorize Canadian articling students as being sufficiently employed. Since UDM's enrollment is almost half Canadian, this puts UDM at a disadvantage in the statistics. If other Canadian law schools were assessed by the same criteria, they would fare poorly as well.

Nonetheless, I do understand. I know you Canadians like to hate, but I hope you will all find a way to calm down. It gets pathetic at times.

Full disclosure: I am a dual student, so I am biased... though I notice that everyone else on this thread considers themselves experts despite generally having limited exposure to the program.

Warmest regards,
BlueberryTimbit

 We were commenting on UDM based on ABA data.  It was incorrect, I see the links I posted to have updated that.  That was all you had to say. The gratuitous insults weren't necessary and are churlish.  

 

 

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On 2018-05-23 at 10:35 PM, Ryn said:

Interesting. I've heard the opposite, though only about New York, California, and Washington. This article seems to show that NY doesn't even make the list of the most difficult exams. Huh. Well, I stand corrected, since the stories I heard are probably less reliable.

I will add that, if the ON bar is harder than pretty much all of the US states, it really does highlight the incomprehensible incompetence of a near majority of law schools in the US compared to Canadian ones.

I've written both Ontario and NY relatively recently.  Ontario is an open book multiple choice exam that basically tests reading comprehension and ability to look up answers in the materials for several hours without falling asleep.  NY is like a closed book law school exam that covers a dozen or so different subject areas in pretty significant detail.  NY is a lot more challenging, and I've never encountered any other ON-NY writers who have found otherwise.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/4/2018 at 10:51 AM, conge said:

Why don't Canadian law schools partner with good American law schools? Ottawa and Windsor do themselves a disservice by teaming with awful US schools.  

Didn't Dal have a US/Can dual law degree program with the University of Maine?  Is that still something they're doing?

While UMaine is probably not considered a top tier law school, presumably it would at least be considered a middling one.

Edited by HumptyDumpty

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12 hours ago, HumptyDumpty said:

Didn't Dal have a US/Can dual law degree program with the University of Maine?  Is that still something they're doing?

While UMaine is probably not considered a top tier law school, presumably it would at least be considered a middling one.

No. Maine students can go to Dal for a semester, but that's it. I don't even think it's reciprocal. Maine is def not a top tier school. I don't even think it's a middling one. 

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