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U of T vs top US

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52 minutes ago, Prospero said:

This thread is kind of making me feel like an idiot for not applying to the T13 lol...sigh. I'm wondering now, if there is no particular preference between Toronto and New York biglaw, whether @Livinginamerica would choose U of T or a lower T13 (Cornell, Berkeley, Northwestern). HYSCCN would have used my application as kindling, but I had a good shot at getting in to the lower end of the T13. Did I make a mistake accepting U of T? 

Well the general answer to your question is it depends on your circumstances. But I will say that I do not think this thread is doing a justice to the whole UofT versus T14 debate. 

As someone who attends UofT, I don't think i have met anyone who regretted turning down a lower T14 for UofT. The problem with the whole UofT versus T14 debate is the correct answer is it really depends on your circumstances, but no one really wants to hear that. Obviously the poster could have easily typed in "UofT versus T14" and read the other 100 posts on this topic and made a decision, but they made a new one, so the people who are actually going to provide a reasonable debate are probably so fed up with this issue that they just skipped it, this leaves the debate looking extremely one-sided. 

I have also noticed that a number of posters on this threads are either very new into law school or have not been admitted yet and while it is important to hear different perspectives it really turns into the blind leading the blind. When I look back as to how little I knew about law school when I started as opposed to now it really is like night and day. 

All I can say is that there is no way I wouldve attended a lower T14 over UofT, most people I have talked to at UofT would not have considered lower T14s over UofT, I have a few friends who did undergrad in the states and even they said there is no way they would have attended Cornell, Northwestern, G-town over UofT. 

So to answer your question, did you make an mistake attending UofT? I have no idea, but I really don't think this thread should make you change your mind. 

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6 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Fine, yes. The main issue is government loans come nowhere near to covering the 150-160 grand a u of t law student racks up over 3 years of law school. So that same student from a low salary background - in fact the ones more likely to end up in need of this program for the very reason you said - will only be covered for.. 25 percent of their 160 000 debt? Great, but that's still a 120 000 dollar rock they're stuck under for 10 or so years.

The program covers more than government loans.

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8 hours ago, Prospero said:

This thread is kind of making me feel like an idiot for not applying to the T13 lol...sigh. I'm wondering now, if there is no particular preference between Toronto and New York biglaw, whether @Livinginamerica would choose U of T or a lower T13 (Cornell, Berkeley, Northwestern). HYSCCN would have used my application as kindling, but I had a good shot at getting in to the lower end of the T13. Did I make a mistake accepting U of T? 

I sometimes wonder if I should have taken that scholarship to Harvard. But there was a reason I didn't. I think my life would have been much harder if I did. And everything ended up fine. And I definitely wouldn't have been happy in US biglaw, so if the result of going to Harvard would have been getting pushed into biglaw even more than I already felt I was here, I don't think that that would have been good for me. 

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8 hours ago, Prospero said:

This thread is kind of making me feel like an idiot for not applying to the T13 lol...sigh. I'm wondering now, if there is no particular preference between Toronto and New York biglaw, whether @Livinginamerica would choose U of T or a lower T13 (Cornell, Berkeley, Northwestern). HYSCCN would have used my application as kindling, but I had a good shot at getting in to the lower end of the T13. Did I make a mistake accepting U of T? 

Toronto and NY biglaw are pretty different, so if you have no particular preference between them, you probably haven't researched them enough to know exactly what you want, not so much area of law/practice area, but lifestyle, career progression etc. 

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17 hours ago, Livinginamerica said:

It is from the Ultravires survey, though, from my understanding, Canadian firms do not have 100% hireback rates (whereas American firms do), so even though you might get a summer position, you still have to compete for articling and hireback spots.

If you get a summer position, you have an articling position - short of rogering the Managing Partner's teenage daughter on his desk, while he's there, during a video conference call with  the firm's most important client, you get hired back for articling.  There isn't 100% hireback for associate positions 

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13 hours ago, Prospero said:

This thread is kind of making me feel like an idiot for not applying to the T13 lol...sigh. I'm wondering now, if there is no particular preference between Toronto and New York biglaw, whether @Livinginamerica would choose U of T or a lower T13 (Cornell, Berkeley, Northwestern). HYSCCN would have used my application as kindling, but I had a good shot at getting in to the lower end of the T13. Did I make a mistake accepting U of T? 

Honestly, the decision between lower T13 and U of T is a tougher call than the decision between HYSCCN and U of T. It would honestly depend which T13 you are talking about. Cornell has about 75% biglaw/clerkship placement, which is considerably better than U of T's 50%. Northwestern is about 66% if I remember correctly. The differences are not so huge, though, as to make U of T an unwise choice, particularly because U of T is a little cheaper than those American schools, so, particularly if you paying sticker for both options, U of T, in this case, might provide greater downside protection.

 

I think there may also be something to be said that it's better to go to the number 1 school in Canada, than the number 12 school in America, just in terms of pecking order. Cornell is far from being as well respected as HYSCCN, whereas U of T opens all doors for you in Canada if you get good grades. Although it's placement is a little weaker than the lower T13, it is cheaper. It's really up to you if you think the better placement at a school like Cornell is worth it for you.

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I have a cousin who went to a mid-T13 law school, as did their spouse. They both got hired into biglaw in NYC, which they were both certain they wanted initially. One of their firms was willing to pay off all their student debt if they stayed for a specific amount of time. One spouse didn't make it a year, and didn't get the debt relief, and the other didn't make it 2 years. They ultimately decided that the toll it was taking on their marriage wasn't worth it and they wanted a family. They moved to a smaller centre where one of them had family that could help with child care, one went in-house with a smaller company and one went to government. Between the two of them, for both their undergrads and law school, their student debt was close to 700K. As a result, they found that they could only afford a small condo and decided to have less kids than they initially wanted because of the debt. This is to say that people need to consider all possible angles of a decision. 

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15 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

What? How is bank debt interest free loan? 

Because the law school pays the interest on the loan for you. That's part of the financial aid program.

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45 minutes ago, lioness said:

I have a cousin who went to a mid-T13 law school, as did their spouse. They both got hired into biglaw in NYC, which they were both certain they wanted initially. One of their firms was willing to pay off all their student debt if they stayed for a specific amount of time. One spouse didn't make it a year, and didn't get the debt relief, and the other didn't make it 2 years. They ultimately decided that the toll it was taking on their marriage wasn't worth it and they wanted a family. They moved to a smaller centre where one of them had family that could help with child care, one went in-house with a smaller company and one went to government. Between the two of them, for both their undergrads and law school, their student debt was close to 700K. As a result, they found that they could only afford a small condo and decided to have less kids than they initially wanted because of the debt. This is to say that people need to consider all possible angles of a decision. 

Jeez. What is it about NYC biglaw that is so brutal? How is it different from Bay Street?

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5 minutes ago, Prospero said:

Jeez. What is it about NYC biglaw that is so brutal? How is it different from Bay Street?

The work hours and targets required that they describe make Bay Street look like kindergarten, from what I have heard of it. And there's no articling year to ease you in, so you're learning the work and having to bill at the same time. And at their firms at least, the other junior associates in their years were cut-throat competitive. One spouse liked NYC as a city, but the other hated the general NYC lifestyle - the commute, the prices, the attitude of people, the crowds and so on. I am quite familiar with both NYC and Toronto, and Toronto is much more laid-back in general as a city.

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2 hours ago, Livinginamerica said:

which is considerably better than U of T's 50%.

 

 

Its more like 62-64% when you take into account NY job offers and you cite the 54% number reffered here. https://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/UV-February-2018-Recruitment-Special-1.pdf. Keep in mind that the 54% is all referring to all students in the class (205) so its assuming that every single person is applying to a Bay St job (and assuming the no one in the class went to Alberta and British Columbia). So the number is most certainty significantly higher, but I will use the most conservative estimate. 

I understand that a simple 10% here or there may seem like nit-picking but considering your reliance on these numbers is seems really odd that you refuse to use the right numbers even though a number of UofT students have corrected you in previous threads (including myself in this thread a few posts up). 

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40 minutes ago, NathanDrake said:

Its more like 62-64% when you take into account NY job offers and you cite the 54% number reffered here. https://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/UV-February-2018-Recruitment-Special-1.pdf. Keep in mind that the 54% is all referring to all students in the class (205) so its assuming that every single person is applying to a Bay St job (and assuming the no one in the class went to Alberta and British Columbia). So the number is most certainty significantly higher, but I will use the most conservative estimate. 

I understand that a simple 10% here or there may seem like nit-picking but considering your reliance on these numbers is seems really odd that you refuse to use the right numbers even though a number of UofT students have corrected you in previous threads (including myself in this thread a few posts up). 

Well, to be honest, I didn't necessarily want to quibble over 10% either, but the fact of the matter is that, a. there is significant attrition between articling and first year associate positions, which is very different than in America, where there are almost no first year associates who are fired (surely you know this from experience with your friends, right?). Secondly, I quibble with the notion that JD/MBAs should be counted for in the figures, because at what point do we stop counting joint degree candidates? The JD/MBAs at Harvard have fundamentally different interests than the JDs, they go into ibanking and consulting. It makes no sense to count them as part of the general class. That being said, the latest UV survey is showing significant improvement in U of T placement (congratulations!), meaning that the number if probably closer to 60% now. Assuming that the improved placement rates hold (and that is a big assumption) I would now say that U of T is probably a better option than schools like Berkeley and Northwestern (Cornell is still debatable) since it is placing people at these rates with lower tuition.

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4 minutes ago, Livinginamerica said:

Well, to be honest, I didn't necessarily want to quibble over 10% either, but the fact of the matter is that, a. there is significant attrition between articling and first year associate positions, which is very different than in America, where there are almost no first year associates who are fired (surely you know this from experience with your friends, right?). Secondly, I quibble with the notion that JD/MBAs should be counted for in the figures, because at what point do we stop counting joint degree candidates? The JD/MBAs at Harvard have fundamentally different interests than the JDs, they go into ibanking and consulting. It makes no sense to count them as part of the general class. That being said, the latest UV survey is showing significant improvement in U of T placement (congratulations!), meaning that the number if probably closer to 60% now. Assuming that the improved placement rates hold (and that is a big assumption) I would now say that U of T is probably a better option than schools like Berkeley and Northwestern (Cornell is still debatable) since it is placing people at these rates with lower tuition.

I suspect that the increase in U of T students going to Bay does not mean that there were always more people wanting it than placing there and now more people are placing, but that U of T tuition is up and so more people are feeling pushed to Bay and the ones who don’t want Bay are not even going there in the first place. So yes, as Canadian tuition goes up, we’ll get closer to the situation in the US. 

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17 hours ago, Prospero said:

This thread is kind of making me feel like an idiot for not applying to the T13 lol...sigh. I'm wondering now, if there is no particular preference between Toronto and New York biglaw, whether @Livinginamerica would choose U of T or a lower T13 (Cornell, Berkeley, Northwestern). HYSCCN would have used my application as kindling, but I had a good shot at getting in to the lower end of the T13. Did I make a mistake accepting U of T? 

Yeah. You will regret this for the rest of your life. Every achievement will be cheapened. You could have been a big swinging dick in Man fucking hattan and instead you'll fritter your life away playing tiddlywinks with halfwit bay street "lawyers". When your children learn your dark secret they will scorn you and your wife will cuckold you with a succession of swarthier, more American men.

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13 minutes ago, Eeee said:

your wife will cuckold you with a succession of swarthier, more American men.

Not if I do it to her first 

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On 3/4/2018 at 12:15 PM, jbird9226 said:

Thanks for the in-depth reply. Georgetown is definitely the worst T14 based on placement, and that was a pretty eyebrow-raising comparison you pointed out there. Unfortunately I haven't got anything close to the French proficiency for McGill, so that's out of the question already. 

Regarding US schools specifically, assuming I do decide to do IP (not for sure yet), how would you weigh the relative advantages of Harvard/Yale being somewhat bigger names with Columbia/NYU being in somewhat more advantageous locations (really location, singular, because Manhattan can't be beat)? Not to mention, both Columbia and NYU seem to actually have better firm placement rates than Harvard and Yale do. 

Thanks again for the advice.

PM me — can speak to the legal labour market dynamics a little bit. The absolute most competitive jobs in the US are often thought to be the so-called 'unicorn' public interest jobs; that's what you're seeing in H/Y placement rates. H/Y financial aid and debt repayment assistance allow you to preserve the option to not do Big Law as well as to do Big Law.

(If you're thinking of going to an ASW down here, definitely shoot me a PM).

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1 hour ago, Eeee said:

Yeah. You will regret this for the rest of your life. Every achievement will be cheapened. You could have been a big swinging dick in Man fucking hattan and instead you'll fritter your life away playing tiddlywinks with halfwit bay street "lawyers". When your children learn your dark secret they will scorn you and your wife will cuckold you with a succession of swarthier, more American men.

Ehh. I’ve had a few swarthy American men and I’m thrilled with my halfwit Bay Street lawyer :)

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14 hours ago, Prospero said:

Not if I do it to her first 

You're going to cuckold her with a succession of swarthier, more American, men?  

Someone lend that man a dictionary...

 

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Besides all the talk about money, I don't get why people would want to live in the US. I sure wouldn't...

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Just now, hl545 said:

Besides all the talk about money, I don't get why people would want to live in the US. I sure wouldn't...

Have you ever lived there? I ask myself the same question about Canada quite often.

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