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U of T vs top US

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5 minutes ago, providence said:

Georgetown tuition = 58K a year. 

My argument would be that that tuition rate is tagged to US biglaw salaries at 180k, whereas U of T's tuition is tagged to Bay Street salaries, which are lower. Both are still banking on you getting the top paying job. As for whether substantially more Canadians are actually interested in public interest law, it's really impossible to say.

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9 minutes ago, Livinginamerica said:

My argument would be that that tuition rate is tagged to US biglaw salaries at 180k, whereas U of T's tuition is tagged to Bay Street salaries, which are lower. Both are still banking on you getting the top paying job. As for whether substantially more Canadians are actually interested in public interest law, it's really impossible to say.

Well, not that many Canadians practice “public interest law” because it is a pretty small niche. But plenty of U of T grads want to practice family law, criminal law, immigration law, general practice in a small town, work for the government etc which are not Bay Street jobs. 

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2 minutes ago, providence said:

Well, not that many Canadians practice “public interest law” because it is a pretty small niche. But plenty of U of T grads want to practice family law, criminal law, immigration law, general practice in a small town, work for the government etc which are not Bay Street jobs. 

Not to mention the people that choose to go elsewhere in Canada.

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13 minutes ago, Livinginamerica said:

My argument would be that that tuition rate is tagged to US biglaw salaries at 180k, whereas U of T's tuition is tagged to Bay Street salaries, which are lower. Both are still banking on you getting the top paying job. As for whether substantially more Canadians are actually interested in public interest law, it's really impossible to say.

Still a bit bigger gap between 58K and 180K (122 K) and 30K and 110K (80K). Over 3 years, the Georgetown grad has 84K more debt load just on tuition. That much debt (174k for tuition and then living expenses) probably drives a lot more people to biglaw. 

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3 minutes ago, NathanDrake said:

It depends on the firm and can range from 100% to 60%, but like I said NY year-to-year hire back is hardly 100%. 

The issue with your comparison is you are looking purely at numbers, without dwelling into them. From personal experience I can tell you UofT's biglaw placement is around 63-65% when you take into account the number of students who are going to New York (they arent included in the UV numbers) and the number of students who opt out. However, in Toronto there are a number of firms that hire (and pay bay st market rate) who do not participate in the OCI recruit. Georgetown may have 40% biglaw placement but their employment rate is around 85%...that means 15% of a 600-700 person class is graduating with 300K debt and no job. Conversely, Uoft employment is around 95% so very few people are graduating with no jobs. 

So essentially, UofT and Georgetown have very similar upside but vastly different downsides, which dont make them similar schools. And once again, pure employment rates are not perfect. Columbia has a 80% biglaw placement, UofT has 65%. I think it is probably as hard to stay in the top 65% of UofT as it is Columbia. Then after that you have to take into account that, while the U.S pays significantly more than Bay st starting salaries, the vast majority of people leave (U.S is like 6 partners per 100 summer students), and once you leave biglaw the gap between salaries closes significantly. Also, if you have someone staying on Bay and someone going in-house in NY, the Bay lawyer is going to make significantly more. 

So yes, to answer your question, if you look at purely biglaw placement without delving into the numbers or doing any other analysis then yes, UofT and Georgtown have similar numbers (so does Georgetown and any other bottom-half T14 school, such as Berkley, NW, Cornell) but when you actually look into the numbers they are pretty different. 

It is also important to keep in mind that UofT places around 15% of its class into New York, with UofT tuition still being significantly lower than any U.S school (with currency conversation) you are making more money than your American-educated counter parts. So its more like:

UofT:

15% chance you go to New York and make an insane amount of money

50% you go on Bay and live very similar to a NY associate when you take into account tuition payments + lower cost of living 

30% you get an outside Bay job and you are are going to have to scrimp and save to pay off your debt

5% you don't find a job and you are freaking out  

GeorgeTown:

40% you end up in NY big law where you make a lot of money (but don't live as well as the UofT grad because you have American Law school debt)

45% you get a non-big law job and have to scrimp and save to pay off debt 

15% you don't get a job and you are freaking out 

 

Also its important to keep in mind that in the NY versus Bay St debate, most Canadians who go there end up coming back after a few years. If NY is really, as some posters make it out to be, the city where everything is better as a lawyer, it does not make sense that the vast majority come back. A more accurate representation is that, while NY pays significantly more than Bay St initially, after a few years it depends more on the lawyer than the city. 

 

What does this mean for someone making the UofT/U.S debate?

1) Look at NY biglaw as something you will do for 3-4 years. Compare the extra money you will be making to the extra debt you will be taking on to go there (taking into account financial aid and scholarships). 

2) When you look at employment rates, look at the strength of the class and look at the worst case scenario and gauge how well you think you can do (like I said, Columbia and NYU have amazing biglaw placement rates but you are also competing with a much stronger and corporate-geared class). 

3) Look at other factors, some people like New York because its the corporate center of the world, some people like Toronto because its a little smaller and more manageable, try and quantify those values and think about what matters to you

4) Most importantly, take everything on here with a grain of salt (including myself); keep in mind that the person comparing UofT to Georgetown has never attended either of those schools, keep in mind that the person telling you NY lawyers tend to prefer Toronto is mostly talking to lawyers that came back to Toronto and is probably missing out on the lawyers who decided to stay. 

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7 minutes ago, NathanDrake said:

It is also important to keep in mind that UofT places around 15% of its class into New York, with UofT tuition still being significantly lower than any U.S school (with currency conversation) you are making more money than your American-educated counter parts. So its more like:

UofT:

15% chance you go to New York and make an insane amount of money

50% you go on Bay and live very similar to a NY associate when you take into account tuition payments + lower cost of living 

30% you get an outside Bay job and you are are going to have to scrimp and save to pay off your debt

5% you don't find a job and you are freaking out  

GeorgeTown:

40% you end up in NY big law where you make a lot of money (but don't live as well as the UofT grad because you have American Law school debt)

45% you get a non-big law job and have to scrimp and save to pay off debt 

15% you don't get a job and you are freaking out 

 

Also its important to keep in mind that in the NY versus Bay St debate, most Canadians who go there end up coming back after a few years. If NY is really, as some posters make it out to be, the city where everything is better as a lawyer, it does not make sense that the vast majority come back. A more accurate representation is that, while NY pays significantly more than Bay St initially, after a few years it depends more on the lawyer than the city. 

 

What does this mean for someone making the UofT/U.S debate?

1) Look at NY biglaw as something you will do for 3-4 years. Compare the extra money you will be making to the extra debt you will be taking on to go there (taking into account financial aid and scholarships). 

2) When you look at employment rates, look at the strength of the class and look at the worst case scenario and gauge how well you think you can do (like I said, Columbia and NYU have amazing biglaw placement rates but you are also competing with a much stronger and corporate-geared class). 

3) Look at other factors, some people like New York because its the corporate center of the world, some people like Toronto because its a little smaller and more manageable, try and quantify those values and think about what matters to you

4) Most importantly, take everything on here with a grain of salt (including myself); keep in mind that the person comparing UofT to Georgetown has never attended either of those schools, keep in mind that the person telling you NY lawyers tend to prefer Toronto is mostly talking to lawyers that came back to Toronto and is probably missing out on the lawyers who decided to stay. 

I don't necessarily disagree with much of this post, but 15% for NYC out of U of T seems high. Where are you getting that figure from?

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6 minutes ago, NathanDrake said:

It is also important to keep in mind that UofT places around 15% of its class into New York, with UofT tuition still being significantly lower than any U.S school (with currency conversation) you are making more money than your American-educated counter parts. So its more like:

UofT:

15% chance you go to New York and make an insane amount of money

50% you go on Bay and live very similar to a NY associate when you take into account tuition payments + lower cost of living 

30% you get an outside Bay job and you are are going to have to scrimp and save to pay off your debt

5% you don't find a job and you are freaking out  

GeorgeTown:

40% you end up in NY big law where you make a lot of money (but don't live as well as the UofT grad because you have American Law school debt)

45% you get a non-big law job and have to scrimp and save to pay off debt 

15% you don't get a job and you are freaking out 

 

Also its important to keep in mind that in the NY versus Bay St debate, most Canadians who go there end up coming back after a few years. If NY is really, as some posters make it out to be, the city where everything is better as a lawyer, it does not make sense that the vast majority come back. A more accurate representation is that, while NY pays significantly more than Bay St initially, after a few years it depends more on the lawyer than the city. 

 

What does this mean for someone making the UofT/U.S debate?

1) Look at NY biglaw as something you will do for 3-4 years. Compare the extra money you will be making to the extra debt you will be taking on to go there (taking into account financial aid and scholarships). 

2) When you look at employment rates, look at the strength of the class and look at the worst case scenario and gauge how well you think you can do (like I said, Columbia and NYU have amazing biglaw placement rates but you are also competing with a much stronger and corporate-geared class). 

3) Look at other factors, some people like New York because its the corporate center of the world, some people like Toronto because its a little smaller and more manageable, try and quantify those values and think about what matters to you

4) Most importantly, take everything on here with a grain of salt (including myself); keep in mind that the person comparing UofT to Georgetown has never attended either of those schools, keep in mind that the person telling you NY lawyers tend to prefer Toronto is mostly talking to lawyers that came back to Toronto and is probably missing out on the lawyers who decided to stay. 

:rolleyes: Or U of T - 30% you realize you will be happier outside of biglaw and find a job you love that makes you happy and allows you to meet your financial obligations, including loans if you have them (and not everyone does) and still live better than you would have without a law degree. 

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15 minutes ago, NathanDrake said:

It is also important to keep in mind that UofT places around 15% of its class into New York, with UofT tuition still being significantly lower than any U.S school (with currency conversation) you are making more money than your American-educated counter parts. So its more like:

UofT:

15% chance you go to New York and make an insane amount of money

50% you go on Bay and live very similar to a NY associate when you take into account tuition payments + lower cost of living 

30% you get an outside Bay job and you are are going to have to scrimp and save to pay off your debt

5% you don't find a job and you are freaking out  

GeorgeTown:

40% you end up in NY big law where you make a lot of money (but don't live as well as the UofT grad because you have American Law school debt)

45% you get a non-big law job and have to scrimp and save to pay off debt 

15% you don't get a job and you are freaking out 

 

Also its important to keep in mind that in the NY versus Bay St debate, most Canadians who go there end up coming back after a few years. If NY is really, as some posters make it out to be, the city where everything is better as a lawyer, it does not make sense that the vast majority come back. A more accurate representation is that, while NY pays significantly more than Bay St initially, after a few years it depends more on the lawyer than the city. 

 

What does this mean for someone making the UofT/U.S debate?

1) Look at NY biglaw as something you will do for 3-4 years. Compare the extra money you will be making to the extra debt you will be taking on to go there (taking into account financial aid and scholarships). 

2) When you look at employment rates, look at the strength of the class and look at the worst case scenario and gauge how well you think you can do (like I said, Columbia and NYU have amazing biglaw placement rates but you are also competing with a much stronger and corporate-geared class). 

3) Look at other factors, some people like New York because its the corporate center of the world, some people like Toronto because its a little smaller and more manageable, try and quantify those values and think about what matters to you

4) Most importantly, take everything on here with a grain of salt (including myself); keep in mind that the person comparing UofT to Georgetown has never attended either of those schools, keep in mind that the person telling you NY lawyers tend to prefer Toronto is mostly talking to lawyers that came back to Toronto and is probably missing out on the lawyers who decided to stay. 

I should also note that I have met a number of Canadian partners at US biglaw firms. Sure some do return home, others do stay for the long haul however, and there is no reason why you can't if you are a good performer.

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25 minutes ago, Livinginamerica said:

I don't necessarily disagree with much of this post, but 15% for NYC out of U of T seems high. Where are you getting that figure from?

You're right, 15% might be too high, we usually have around 6-7 JD/MBAs and 13-14 JDs going to New York, it is also important to note that every year around 3-4 people turn down NY, so it would be more like 9-10% assuming a class of 200. 

 

25 minutes ago, providence said:

:rolleyes: Or U of T - 30% you realize you will be happier outside of biglaw and find a job you love that makes you happy and allows you to meet your financial obligations, including loans if you have them (and not everyone does) and still live better than you would have without a law degree. 

This is a fair, but this thread seems to be focused mostly on corporate outcomes; outside of corporate law I think it becomes very convoluted because salaries fluctuate significantly.

21 minutes ago, Livinginamerica said:

I should also note that I have met a number of Canadian partners at US biglaw firms. Sure some do return home, others do stay for the long haul however, and there is no reason why you can't if you are a good performer.

I was mostly referring to UofT students who went to NY to practice as those who come back. Interestingly, Canadians who go to the states for school tend to stay, whereas Canadians who go to UofT but get hired in NY tend to come back. I personally think it has alot to do with the connections you've made and the fact that you've lived somewhere for 3 years. 

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31 minutes ago, Ambit said:

"eligible academic student debt after graduation(i.e., Faculty of Law interest-free loans and government student loans*)"

 

how convenient for them to ignore what is the majority of law stufent debt, especially at u of t - bank debt.

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5 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

"eligible academic student debt after graduation(i.e., Faculty of Law interest-free loans and government student loans*)"

 

how convenient for them to ignore what is the majority of law stufent debt, especially at u of t - bank debt.

Students from lower-income backgrounds are eligible for more government loans than those from middle and upper class backgrounds. It makes perfect sense that UofT prioritizes these students over those who come from higher income backgrounds. 

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The bank debt is the  "interest-free" loans. U of T pays your interest on all of your met need. Some students also go outside that because they don't have the deemed parental contribution. Even that is calculated when they determine how much income you have (they just never pay it back).

Edited by Ambit
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4 minutes ago, NathanDrake said:

Students from lower-income backgrounds are eligible for more government loans than those from middle and upper class backgrounds. It makes perfect sense that UofT prioritizes these students over those who come from higher income backgrounds. 

Fine, yes. The main issue is government loans come nowhere near to covering the 150-160 grand a u of t law student racks up over 3 years of law school. So that same student from a low salary background - in fact the ones more likely to end up in need of this program for the very reason you said - will only be covered for.. 25 percent of their 160 000 debt? Great, but that's still a 120 000 dollar rock they're stuck under for 10 or so years.

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41 minutes ago, Ambit said:

The bank debt is the  "interest-free" loans. U of T pays your interest on all of your met need. Some students also go outside that because they don't have the deemed parental contribution. Even that is calculated when they determine how much income you have (they just never pay it back).

What? How is bank debt interest free loan? 

Edited by pzabbythesecond

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48 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Fine, yes. The main issue is government loans come nowhere near to covering the 150-160 grand a u of t law student racks up over 3 years of law school. So that same student from a low salary background - in fact the ones more likely to end up in need of this program for the very reason you said - will only be covered for.. 25 percent of their 160 000 debt? Great, but that's still a 120 000 dollar rock they're stuck under for 10 or so years.

Well presumably the low-income student is going to get significant financial aid as well. It is extremely unlikely that a low income student is going to have 160K in debt.

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53 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Fine, yes. The main issue is government loans come nowhere near to covering the 150-160 grand a u of t law student racks up over 3 years of law school. So that same student from a low salary background - in fact the ones more likely to end up in need of this program for the very reason you said - will only be covered for.. 25 percent of their 160 000 debt? Great, but that's still a 120 000 dollar rock they're stuck under for 10 or so years.

U of T has needs based financial aid that you need to factor in too. 

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I'll say this and leave it:

 

I don't know what u of t's financial needs numbers are. But I can imagine a whole lot of scenarios where students aren't covered by financial aid from the uni because of their parent's income, or only partly, etc but those students don't actually get help from parents. There are holes in financial aid schemes like that.

 

But my more general point is the tuition is so damn crazy that that little qualifier still allows a student to be under a significant burden of debt repayment if - god forbid - they didn't pick a more lucrative practice of law. It's a good step, sure, but U of T has the damn money to make that a much more meaningful program by covering ALL student related debt when someone picks a career that pays less for a public purpose, or what have you.

Edited by pzabbythesecond
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16 minutes ago, pzabbythesecond said:

U of T has the damn money to make that a much more meaningful program by covering ALL student related debt when someone picks a career that pays less for a public purpose, or what have you.

I just don't think this is true. 

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This thread is kind of making me feel like an idiot for not applying to the T13 lol...sigh. I'm wondering now, if there is no particular preference between Toronto and New York biglaw, whether @Livinginamerica would choose U of T or a lower T13 (Cornell, Berkeley, Northwestern). HYSCCN would have used my application as kindling, but I had a good shot at getting in to the lower end of the T13. Did I make a mistake accepting U of T? 

Edited by Prospero

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