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Osgoode

Has UWindsor's Law School Reputation Changed

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I know Maclean's hasn't released a ranking in a long time. (5 years ago) I'd just like to know if the reputation for UWindsor Law has changed? I think one of the main reasons it was ranked so low was because the entering CGPA was a lot lower than average. At the same time, UWindsor receives the second most applicants behind Osgoode. Have things changed at all? If they have, how so, if not why would you speculate not?

 

I saw this on Reddit the other day and it had me worried when I was reading the comments.

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It's disheartening. I think you can take it for however you want to. I guess they've made their position clear. The question is, how are you going to feel about it?

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Look, I worked with many Windsor grads when I was in SW Ontario. Some were great lawyers. Some weren't. I've worked alongside and against Uni of Toronto lawyers as well. Some were great, others weren't. Windor's rep is fine. And you'll still learn the law as well.

 

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That MacLean's ranking article was widely panned as being next to useless and focusing on the ambitions/fears of a certain subset of law school applicants (eg. amount of appointments to prestigious positions and elite firm hiring. It's best to pay it no mind. Where it was right it was practically on accident.

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On 2/22/2018 at 2:42 AM, Osgoode said:

I know Maclean's hasn't released a ranking in a long time. (5 years ago) I'd just like to know if the reputation for UWindsor Law has changed? I think one of the main reasons it was ranked so low was because the entering CGPA was a lot lower than average. At the same time, UWindsor receives the second most applicants behind Osgoode. Have things changed at all? If they have, how so, if not why would you speculate not?

 

I saw this on Reddit the other day and it had me worried when I was reading the comments.

Regarding your link to the Reddit post – I'd recommend studying the law first and then forming your own opinion of what you think the statement meant. I take the comments written in response as opinions and not at all a reflection of the law school as a whole. 

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Windsor's reputation was fine right up until the leak a couple months back. The leak itself and their responses to my questions regarding it ruined their reputation for me. 

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46 minutes ago, bhaywardio said:

Windsor's reputation was fine right up until the leak a couple months back. The leak itself and their responses to my questions regarding it ruined their reputation for me. 

we meet again bhaywardio! 

did you get the chance to take a look at this? not sure if this answers all your questions:  

On 1/19/2018 at 3:26 PM, Lawsandpaws said:

Just in case anyone hasn’t seen it so far, there’s an update email that answers some of the questions we’ve had:

We are in the process of responding to all messages which have been sent to us and will get back to you as soon as possible. Meanwhile, we have received common questions and provide here some answers to those questions. 

 

  1. Was it only my information that was released?

No, summary information relating to all JD applicants was made available through a link to a file. The information of applicants to the Canadian and American Dual JD Program was not in the same file (though note that if you applied to both programs your information would have appeared in the JD list).

 

  1. Who are the students that saw it – current law students or other applicants?

The link to the information was sent to current law students, not applicants. As noted, only 36 students actually accessed the file itself. Note that we have followed up with all 36 students, individually.

 

  1. Is the actual application itself secure?

Yes, the applications, including all documents such as medical documentation and personal statements are secure. Only a summary spreadsheet was contained in the file.

 

  1. Is there anything I need to do?

The work of the Admissions Committee is independent of our administrative tracking of the information on the spreadsheet. Our file reviews remain ongoing as usual.

 

  1. What is an admit value? 

This is a numerical value assigned to each applicant’s file, largely based on the decisions of file readers.

 

  1. When was the breach itself and what happened?

As part of our investigation, we have learned that the breach itself occurred on January 9th at roughly 3:40pm when an employee mistakenly attached a file to a notification to current law students in the University’s Blackboard learning management system. The employee quickly realized their mistake and deleted the file from the post within 15 minutes. The breach was reported to the Dean’s office on the evening of January 16th and immediate measures were put into place to mitigate the release of information.  

Francine A. Herlehy, BA, LLB | Assistant Dean (Student Services)

 

 

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11 minutes ago, twentytwenty said:

we meet again bhaywardio! 

did you get the chance to take a look at this? not sure if this answers all your questions:  

 

Yes, though it doesn't answer all of my questions. I was mostly concerned with the fact that, in one of the threads, someone mentioned a student had accessed the file via mobile device and it wasn't logged. That and while only 36 students accessed the file, how many were with them at the time of doing so? I also requested if I could see the exact information that was shared. While 36 people I have never met were able to have a cursory glance at my file, I myself was not able to. I understand the reasoning for not allowing me to view it, but it still disappointed me that I was directed to the very post you just shared. Given the potential weight and the risks involved with a data leak, you'd think you'd be given more "personalized" reassurances. That and how long it took for them to notify us regarding the leak. 

I also had a bit of a laugh when I found out on OLSAS that, while student's have an obligation to be honest and truthful with their applications, the schools have an obligation to maintain the privacy of those files. It was a given that our files are to be kept in confidence, but reading it after the fact in the same breathe as the student's obligations was a bit humorous. 

What really made me angry was the fact that, originally, the nature of the information leaked wasn't addressed. Now, it is stressful enough not knowing what was shared. But I know for myself, and some people on this board as well as people I know personally, our files had private medical documents attached. Thankfully this wasn't the case ultimately, but they could have spared us all a few days of anxiety by just saying what was leaked from the get go. 

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33 minutes ago, bhaywardio said:

Yes, though it doesn't answer all of my questions. I was mostly concerned with the fact that, in one of the threads, someone mentioned a student had accessed the file via mobile device and it wasn't logged. I'd be pretty surprised that this happened – I would not say it's common because whenever students try to access docs sent from admin/faculty off mobile devices, we're prompted to log into our online platform with our user-specific credentials. I'm assuming that's how they tracked the 36 who opened it. That and while only 36 students accessed the file, how many were with them at the time of doing so? Fair question but no one could tell you unless the 36 people came forward. I also requested if I could see the exact information that was shared. While 36 people I have never met were able to have a cursory glance at my file, I myself was not able to. I see where you're coming from but if you just wanted to see your portion of it, it would have shown you the "admit value" they talked about. And that value, at the end of the day, is still considered confidential. I understand the reasoning for not allowing me to view it, but it still disappointed me that I was directed to the very post you just shared. Given the potential weight and the risks involved with a data leak, you'd think you'd be given more "personalized" reassurances. That and how long it took for them to notify us regarding the leak. Would you have preferred waiting even longer than a week for a more "personalized" reassurance? I'm definitely not saying the administration is perfect but I think a balance had to be struck here.

I also had a bit of a laugh when I found out on OLSAS that, while student's have an obligation to be honest and truthful with their applications, the schools have an obligation to maintain the privacy of those files. It was a given that our files are to be kept in confidence, but reading it after the fact in the same breathe as the student's obligations was a bit humorous. I'd think that's funny, too. I think the fact that this happened is a pretty tragic blunder. If it makes you feel better – we're all so swamped with work that most people didn't actually pay it much attention, let alone actually do anything with the information. Plus, they definitely did "track people down." 

What really made me angry was the fact that, originally, the nature of the information leaked wasn't addressed. Now, it is stressful enough not knowing what was shared. But I know for myself, and some people on this board as well as people I know personally, our files had private medical documents attached. Thankfully this wasn't the case ultimately, but they could have spared us all a few days of anxiety by just saying what was leaked from the get go. I feel you. Applications are a helluva ride. I agree that the fact that no medical information was disclosed remains a good thing. And again, I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes so I can't attest to how well they handled the post-leak Q&A. From your perspective, it's clear you ain't havin' any of it and that's fair. 

 

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2 minutes ago, twentytwenty said:

 

It really was an unfortunate blunder, but one I can't get passed. Leaking data and making controversial statements aside, you need only look at the general attitudes of people on this board. Prestige and reputation aren't everything and Windsor will get you a job, I fully agree with that. However, when you see such wide spread bias against Windsor, sometimes from people who are in a position to hire you one day it becomes hard to say "I don't care about what people think of this school". It is an ugly, unfortunate reality that you should care. It really isn't fair that you are judged based on where you went to school, but it happens. It doesn't happen all the time, but if it happens even once to you then it has been a negative drawback. 

Even if someone says they have no issues with windsor law, I'd be  surprised if there wasn't some unconscious bias. And an unconscious bias will sink you just as much as a conscious bias will. 

It has also been my experience when discussing things, that if the people defending a subject have to state "it isn't as bad as people make it out to be" or some iteration of that statement, there is a good chance that what they're talking about is pretty bad. "It isn't as bad" is not the same as "it isn't bad" after all. 

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1 minute ago, bhaywardio said:

It really was an unfortunate blunder, but one I can't get passed. Leaking data and making controversial statements aside, you need only look at the general attitudes of people on this board. Prestige and reputation aren't everything and Windsor will get you a job, I fully agree with that. However, when you see such wide spread bias against Windsor, Do you see this outside of this forum as well? I've spoken to a lot of 3L's here and they all have jobs lined up. Some at big firms, some public sector. sometimes from people who are in a position to hire you one day it becomes hard to say "I don't care about what people think of this school". It is an ugly, unfortunate reality that you should care. It really isn't fair that you are judged based on where you went to school, but it happens. It doesn't happen all the time, but if it happens even once to you then it has been a negative drawback. I didn't mean to come off as saying "this school is great despite this blunder" I just wanted to address your points and maybe provoke some thought – are you being realistic with your expectation of a "personalized" response in a short time span during a crazy time of the application cycle?

Even if someone says they have no issues with windsor law, I'd be  surprised if there wasn't some unconscious bias. And an unconscious bias will sink you just as much as a conscious bias will. 

It has also been my experience when discussing things, that if the people defending a subject have to state "it isn't as bad as people make it out to be" or some iteration of that statement, there is a good chance that what they're talking about is pretty bad. Well, that's a little speculative. What I said about people being too busy to actually pay it attention is based on my experience. I can tell you're pretty choked up about this and wanted to let you know that, yeah, it's shitty what happened but don't lose sleep thinking 36 people are out to get you with this information. "It isn't as bad" is not the same as "it isn't bad" after all. For sure, dude. I wasn't saying "it's all good." Aaaaand as much as I'd love to lurk these boards all day, I have to get back to reading :) Feel free to hit up the PM if you wanna continue this friendly banter.

 

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11 hours ago, twentytwenty said:

Regarding your link to the Reddit post – I'd recommend studying the law first and then forming your own opinion of what you think the statement meant. I take the comments written in response as opinions and not at all a reflection of the law school as a whole. 

It's pretty clear what the statement meant — "We want to attract social justice oriented students to our school, and as such we're willing to make ourselves look like idiots to everyone in the legal community."

It's fine to disagree with the Stanley verdict. It's fine to think systemic racism played a role. It's not fine for a law school to make a statement on a case without all the facts before them and it's certainly not fine to call it an act of violence. It's definitely not fine to declare someone was "murdered" when the accused was acquitted. 

Note that I wouldn't suggest anyone not go to Windsor because they put out a stupid statement — nobody could go to any university if we eliminated them after one stupid statement — but it's worth considering if you have options. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois

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Windsor was always considered a pretty poor law school. This statement certainly hasn't helped. 

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1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

It's pretty clear what the statement meant — "We want to attract social justice oriented students to our school, and as such we're willing to make ourselves look like idiots to everyone in the legal community."

It's fine to disagree with the Stanley verdict. It's fine to think systemic racism played a role. It's not fine for a law school to make a statement on a case without all the facts before them and it's certainly not fine to call it an act of violence. It's definitely not fine to declare someone was "murdered" when the accused was acquitted. 

Note that I wouldn't suggest anyone not go to Windsor because they put out a stupid statement — nobody could go to any university if we eliminated them after one stupid statement — but it's worth considering if you have options. 

I've also seen questionable statements from profs at U of Manitoba, U of Ottawa, and the deans of UVic and Osgoode and I'm sure there are more, so this is really a "law prof" issue more than a Windsor issue. 

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Just now, providence said:

I've also seen questionable statements from profs at U of Manitoba, U of Ottawa, and the deans of UVic and Osgoode and I'm sure there are more, so this is really a "law prof" issue more than a Windsor issue. 

I think Windsor is a bit special because they unanimously voted to call it "murder," but as I said, universities make stupid statements all the time. 

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Can you give us some context here - reputation in what sense? It matters to Bay Street/New York employers and Supreme Court clerkships. Otherwise, the common consensus is to go to law school where you want to work. Not sure what else to tell you. If you're talking about the average layperson, then they won't be that impressed you go to Windsor but why does their opinion even matter? 

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8 hours ago, Simbaa said:

Can you give us some context here - reputation in what sense? It matters to Bay Street/New York employers and Supreme Court clerkships. Otherwise, the common consensus is to go to law school where you want to work. Not sure what else to tell you. If you're talking about the average layperson, then they won't be that impressed you go to Windsor but why does their opinion even matter? 

Don't most Windsor grads end up in Toronto, Ottawa etc? I'm sure some stick around Windsor but I would be surprised if most did. 

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2 minutes ago, providence said:

Don't most Windsor grads end up in Toronto, Ottawa etc? I'm sure some stick around Windsor but I would be surprised if most did. 

Many do end up in SW Ontario. I've worked alongside many of them in criminal/family/civil.  

Let's all stop being prestige hussies, especially the law students commenting on "prestige" and hireability here. Some Windsor students will still end up in Big law. The reality is that many self-select out. 

Look, even UQAM grads can end up in Big Law. Windsor will be fine.

 

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8 minutes ago, providence said:

Don't most Windsor grads end up in Toronto, Ottawa etc? I'm sure some stick around Windsor but I would be surprised if most did. 

Seems to be the trend, from what I've seen. 

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