Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
thereleasestg

Is it important to apply to 1L recruit?

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, providence said:

No, most people have 2L summer jobs and  go into 3L with articling positions - at least this used to be the case. It is 1L firm jobs that are more rare.

 It really sounds like you’ve made your mind up and want a guarantee/justification of your choice, and we can’t give you that. You’re going to have to wait and see.

It has nothing to do with a guarantee, it has to do with the fact that I dislike the tone you have been taking throughout this post; you're essentially positioning me as an entitled ingrate. Just because I don't want to sell my soul to the devil, doesn't mean I can't get a good job in summer 2L. It's unfair of you to make that characterization. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, thereleasestg said:

Only a minority of law students end up getting 2L jobs, that's what I meant. 

If you mean on Bay St., that may be true but it certainly isn't true overall.  Most law students, virtually everyone I knew, had a law-related 2L job. This has also been true with the law students I have interviewed on the hiring committee at my firm.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, thereleasestg said:

It has nothing to do with a guarantee, it has to do with the fact that I dislike the tone you have been taking throughout this post; you're essentially positioning me as an entitled ingrate. Just because I don't want to sell my soul to the devil, doesn't mean I can't get a good job in summer 2L. It's unfair of you to make that characterization. 

I have no idea if you can get a good job in summer 2L or not. The point was made by me and others that the good jobs are competitive and there may be people who show more hunger and desire for those jobs and better work ethic by working more than you do. Or maybe not. Maybe you will be able to sell yourself in other ways.We don’t know - those are decisions you have to make for yourself.

You do sound a bit entitled to me, yes. But that’s coming from the perspective of someone who was a single parent in law school and would never have been able to consider doing what you’re doing. And yes, that was a consequence of MY choices in life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, thereleasestg said:

Only a minority of law students end up getting 2L jobs, that's what I meant. 

This is untrue. Most law students have a 2L job. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, erinl2 said:

If you mean on Bay St., that may be true but it certainly isn't true overall.  Most law students, virtually everyone I knew, had a law-related 2L job. This has also been true with the law students I have interviewed on the hiring committee at my firm.

My mistake, I incorrectly understood hiring percentages. Thanks for clarifying. 

But I think I get the idea behind what everyone is saying--don't travel this summer, instead, work somewhere, preferably law related. 

As far as part time versus full time goes, from what I gather, the difference between the two is more of a personal choice; full time might look better to some firms, to other firms it might not matter whether I worked part time or full time this summer if the other elements of my application are strong. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, providence said:

I have no idea if you can get a good job in summer 2L or not. The point was made by me and others that the good jobs are competitive and there may be people who show more hunger and desire for those jobs and better work ethic by working more than you do. Or maybe not. Maybe you will be able to sell yourself in other ways.We don’t know - those are decisions you have to make for yourself.

You do sound a bit entitled to me, yes. But that’s coming from the perspective of someone who was a single parent in law school and would never have been able to consider doing what you’re doing. And yes, that was a consequence of MY choices in life. 

You're allowed to come from that perspective, but it's not fair to make internet judgments of people you've never met before and assume that because I'd like to ease back a bit on the gas this summer,  I'm therefore not hungry and I'm entitled. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, thereleasestg said:

You're allowed to come from that perspective, but it's not fair to make internet judgments of people you've never met before and assume that because I'd like to ease back a bit on the gas this summer,  I'm therefore not hungry and I'm entitled. 

I didn’t assume anything about you personally as a human being.  All I said was that some employers you run into may not see you as having as strong a work ethic or as big a commitment to the law. I wasn’t the only one saying that. Law firm recruitment/job interviews are all about making judgments about people in a short period of time based on limited information about them. I don’t know enough about you to know how you’ll come across overall. 

And yes, I am Lol-ing a bit about you wanting to “ease up on the gas a bit” because the idea that you think 1L is so taxing and draining of your gas absent discussion of any specific challenges is.... interesting. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, thereleasestg said:

My mistake, I incorrectly understood hiring percentages. Thanks for clarifying. 

But I think I get the idea behind what everyone is saying--don't travel this summer, instead, work somewhere, preferably law related. 

As far as part time versus full time goes, from what I gather, the difference between the two is more of a personal choice; full time might look better to some firms, to other firms it might not matter whether I worked part time or full time this summer if the other elements of my application are strong. 

 

It might not. Depends which firm. Depends how strong your application is. If you got your midterms back, you should have some idea of what your grades may be. Depends how strong everyone else’s applications are. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thereleasestg said:

You're allowed to come from that perspective, but it's not fair to make internet judgments of people you've never met before and assume that because I'd like to ease back a bit on the gas this summer,  I'm therefore not hungry and I'm entitled. 

Fair or not it's a reasonable inference.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, thereleasestg said:

As I stated above the last thing I want to do is burn out. To me, there’s no compromise—I want to try to preserve mental energy this summer so that I can go to town in summer 2L. That’s the angle I’m coming from and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to try to keep some gas in the tank this summer to propel me through 2L. The alternative, from what I’ve heard in MANY cases, is a possible burnout during articling, which ultimately would be far worse than whatever ground I lose from working part time as opposed to full time this summer. I know it sounds like I’m being lazy, but I am actually approaching this strategically and with my future health in mind. 

Lol. As a current articling student who's spent every spare minute between all years of school working jobs, I feel like I can can confidently say that no amount of mental energy that you attempt to preserve by working only part-time instead of full-time after 1L is going to make one lick of a difference. Law school is significantly less work than work is. The sooner you figure this out, the happier you'll be.

Also, FYI, however low your "tank" is on gas by the end of 2L summer, I guarantee you that you will have sufficient time to "fill up" in 3L.

Edited by beyondsection17
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, maximumbob said:

Well, look, if you told me you spent the summer helping the minister of finance draft legislation, that might get more weight than working at the cheesecake factory. But the truth is, there's no one who starts as a summer student who really knows much of anything about the practice of law, so that doesn't really make a difference. It's more about the general skills - managing bosses, co-workers, underlings, clients, dealing with difficult people, showing resilience.

Case in point. I spent my 1l summer doing research for a couple of tax law professors - given my interest in tax law, that probably counted for something (interest and smattering of knowledge in tax). But does that make me a more attractive candidate than the guy who spent his summer knives door-to-door (sales, ability to make a pitch, unfailing confidence)? The woman who spends her summer serving drinks  to drunk investment bankers at the cactus club (managing difficult and demanding clients of the sort lawyers deal with)?  

The problem with focussing on "legal experience" is that students forget - or really, don't know - about the types of skills that the actual practice of law entails.  It's much more than "working with the law somehow". 

 

True story - when I was interviewing for articling positions, a partner at one firm asked me what work experience I had had before law school and what it had taught me. I assumed that I should talk about the most impressive job I'd had and launched into some anecdotes about a job I'd had as a director of an arts organization. When I was done, the partner looked disappointed, and I took a chance and commented on that. They said that they were thinking more of minimum-wage, service-type jobs because they can teach people a lot and it's a shame more law students they were interviewing haven't had those. I was surprised and shared that I had actually been a server in a small but busy ethnic restaurant and I had also been a cashier at a large big-box retail store. I then talked about how those jobs had given me skills handling difficult customers, working under stress and so on. The partner perked up and said that that was exactly what they wanted to hear. I later got an offer from that firm. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to travel this summer, you should. As others have mentioned, travelling for the whole summer is unwise - you should also be doing something to gain work skills.

For the FT/PT part: If you don't want to, or are lucky enough where you have the option of not working full-time, I personally don't think you have to. Anecdotally, I know a few people who only worked/volunteered part-time during their 1L summer. Even though they were only working 15-20 hours/week, they were still learning and gaining skills and meaningful experiences that they could talk about that was applicable/transferable to the jobs that they were applying to/interviewing for in 2L. Based on my experiences, employers have never asked me about the hours that I worked in previous positions, only about what I did in those positions. And you don't put down whether something as a full-time or part-time position on your resume.

For 2L summer, most people I knew had a full-time job, whether it was law-related or not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Working in a clinic for the summer was a lot more fun than going on a long, debauched vacation would have been.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Eeee said:

Working in a clinic for the summer was a lot more fun than going on a long, debauched vacation would have been.

But how can you know this if you didn't end up going on that long, debauched vacation?!?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no one here who can tell you if it’s likely you get a Bay Street gig - having full time summer work or otherwise. I know multiple students who had borderline-to-absolute straight As and didn’t get jobs. I know students who had poor grades and what I would think is poor work experience who pulled it off.

There are steps you can take to put yourself in the best position to receive an offer. Working part time isn’t one of them. Not everyone who gets a job was in the best position, not everyone in the best position gets a job. That’s about as much as anyone can really say and it’s a fool’s errand to look for anything more specific.

That’s the frustration from the practicing lawyers here. A big part of your job on bay can be characterized as handling someone else’s risk. What it sounds like you’re struggling with is the idea that there is no such thing as ‘sufficient’. At all. All that can be said is that you’re taking a risk that many or most (I’m fairly sure, the latter) of your competitors will refuse to take. If you are comfortable with that - then by all means, dude. 

Only you can decide how competitive you think you are. Do you have top-20% grades? Are you notably accomplished in some skill? Have you worked min wage jobs and managed teams in previous work experience? Do you have a strongly demonstrated commitment in business or some commercial interest? Do you have resume points that show an exceptional commitment to long term development on something? Do you interview stronger than most law students? What makes you different?

It’s all very nebulous. All we can say is this - it’s a risk, it’s not one most of your competition will choose to take, so you need to consider whether it’s a risk you consider worthwhile. It’s not determinative. It is a risk. 

Edited by theycancallyouhoju

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, thereleasestg said:

You're allowed to come from that perspective, but it's not fair to make internet judgments of people you've never met before and assume that because I'd like to ease back a bit on the gas this summer,  I'm therefore not hungry and I'm entitled. 

It’s entirely fair. “I would like to minimize my working so that I can relax” is the precise opposite of hungry. You do know that, right?

Look, I’m not Providence. I don’t have kids and I’m inherently lazy. I need to really enjoy or care about something to put in 70 hours a week and in practice you’ll meet lots of people who don’t, who can do it just because it comes next. I have no problem admitting I would rather have been gallivanting around the world for three months than working 1L summer, or working part time than full time.

Getting my current job was something I cared about, though. So there’s no chance I would have done that. I’m not even sure I qualify under Providence’s definition of hungry, but part time work would have been beneath my low bar for ‘how much is this worth to me’.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, thereleasestg said:

My mistake, I incorrectly understood hiring percentages. Thanks for clarifying. 

But I think I get the idea behind what everyone is saying--don't travel this summer, instead, work somewhere, preferably law related. 

As far as part time versus full time goes, from what I gather, the difference between the two is more of a personal choice; full time might look better to some firms, to other firms it might not matter whether I worked part time or full time this summer if the other elements of my application are strong. 

 

No. You’re speaking, still, like you think this is undergrad and there are meaningful concepts of sufficiency and good enough here. That’s not the case.

All other things being equal between you and another candidate, working part time and chilling 1L summer will be a negative. The question isn’t whether some firms ‘won’t care’ - firms aren’t even monolithic in that way. The question is whether you’re a strong enough candidate compared to the people competing in your year for the jobs you want to get an offer regardless. 

Edited by theycancallyouhoju

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, thereleasestg said:

It has nothing to do with a guarantee, it has to do with the fact that I dislike the tone you have been taking throughout this post; you're essentially positioning me as an entitled ingrate. Just because I don't want to sell my soul to the devil, doesn't mean I can't get a good job in summer 2L. It's unfair of you to make that characterization. 

Pro tip. Don’t refer to working a full time summer job as ‘selling my soul to the devil’. That will not go well. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

Pro tip. Don’t refer to working a full time summer job as ‘selling my soul to the devil’. That will not go well. 

Or do. After all, I would like a 2L job :) 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, thereleasestg said:

Full time research? 

 

What kind of research?

ill be clear here—I’m not trying to make partner on a Bay Street form nexcessarily, and if i need to sell my soul to the devil to do it, then I certainly don’t want to. A couple posters on here are equating “hungriness” with total dedication to a professional ideal, the latter does not constitute who I am with respect to anything. I wouldn’t be in law school if I wasn’t hungry. That’s not the issue. What I’m doing is strategically trying to preserve energy before I start working 60 hr weeks. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that I asked whether a part time position, just for this summer, would be “sufficient “—what I meant by sufficient is, would it be looked at positively by a firm that I only worked part time as opposed to full time. Obviously I know there are a bunch of people that work full time and that that will be more attractive to a firm, I’m simply asking whether that degree of work this summer is necessary to be seriously considered for a job, on Bay Street or otherwise. I am of the opinion that if get decent grades, I write an attractive cover letter and a well written resume, and I work part time this summer rather than travelling for months on end, I stand a good chance of being employed somewhere desirable (on Bay Street or otherwise). Is that characterization incorrect, based on your experience? 

Okay, my last post now that I’ve caught up.

1. No one is talking about total dedication. Deal with the issue at hand, not the made up exaggerated version of it that works well as a straw man. You’re equating ‘working a job’ with ‘total dedication’ - I assure you, I had much more dedication than merely having a full time summer job, and I would never be so silly as to say my dedication was total. I did more than that, and people did more than me.

2. Lots of us get into law school without being hungry. You’re playing at a new level now. You’re the kid who stepped up from AAA to the OHL. Hungry means a different thing now. That should excite and energize you. Instead, it appears to exhaust.  

3. Preserving energy by way of your summer sounds ridiculous to me. This is your last chance to impress people via your work. You’re literally asking if you can take your last shifts on the ice and just sort of hang back. How can you honestly not see how that sounds silly to the scout in the stands? When the hiring partner asks me to review your resume, that is what I will see - the kid who didn’t join the attack in the third period because he was tired. Obviously, if you’re Conner McDavid, I’m still picking you. But if you’re not, then who the hell knows.

4. No, it is not necessary to be seriously considered for a job. But many, many more people are seriously considered than are hired.

5. You’re at Osgoode? Check out the hiring stats. Something like 40% get an OCI job? If that’s what you’d consider ‘desirable’, then you should note that (a) ‘decent grades’ would just put you in the running, not help you get the job, (b) no one cares how good your cover letter is - it’s something you can screw up, not something you can win on, (c) yes, you will be competing with people who have much more impressive resumes who still decided to hustle on their last shift, and (d) none of us have any clue how well you interview, which is instrumental.

Edited by theycancallyouhoju
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...