Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
notcowgirl

Current Canadian Law School Rankings??

Recommended Posts

28 minutes ago, Constant said:

Using comparatively few criteria it would be possible to create a useful ranking system. 

Really, all you need is an accurate count of polar bears.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-01-08 at 2:57 PM, artsydork said:

The most prestigious law school is wherever I attended. I can't actually read my degree because it is in latin but that means it is extra prestigious. The worst school is wherever I was either not accepted or some poster that I dislike attends.

Given that I was accepted everywhere I applied (aka, that 1 school), there are no bad schools.

I would much rather rank gluten-free bread. Or eclectic folktronica albums. Or best weed store names. or legal puns.

 

I agree. McGill Law is the best school in the country. Transystemia ftw. :uriel:

Edited by Zarathustra
Divine command.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there is a ranking system, it seems tied to the size, power, influence and desirability of the city where the law school is located or how far it is from that market, with Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver being on top by most accounts. That's different from the US, where Harvard is considered more prestigious than any school in New York or Los Angeles. And it's why I don't think that this type of analysis works as well in Canada, since most people choose their school largely by where they want to practice, whereas people go to Harvard knowing that they can practice anywhere. Some people have no desire to live in Toronto. If they and their family are happy in Saskatchewan or Moncton and have roots there, that's where they'll study. They can have a great career in that market looking exactly the way they want it to look and not give a damn that some people think U of T and working on Bay Street are "better." Where I live, I even know of instances where people have attended U of T or McGill and gotten really great grades and then moved here looking for jobs due to personal reasons, and they have had difficulty getting hired, because they aren't seen as having ties to the jurisdiction, or don't know how we do things here, or are perceived as stuck up. I don't know that American lawyers always have the same ability to just go to their local law school, because if it is a bad or poorly-ranked school, they may not be able to get a job after. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, lioness said:

If there is a ranking system, it seems tied to the size, power, influence and desirability of the city where the law school is located or how far it is from that market, with Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver being on top by most accounts. That's different from the US, where Harvard is considered more prestigious than any school in New York or Los Angeles. And it's why I don't think that this type of analysis works as well in Canada, since most people choose their school largely by where they want to practice, whereas people go to Harvard knowing that they can practice anywhere. Some people have no desire to live in Toronto. If they and their family are happy in Saskatchewan or Moncton and have roots there, that's where they'll study. They can have a great career in that market looking exactly the way they want it to look and not give a damn that some people think U of T and working on Bay Street are "better." Where I live, I even know of instances where people have attended U of T or McGill and gotten really great grades and then moved here looking for jobs due to personal reasons, and they have had difficulty getting hired, because they aren't seen as having ties to the jurisdiction, or don't know how we do things here, or are perceived as stuck up. I don't know that American lawyers always have the same ability to just go to their local law school, because if it is a bad or poorly-ranked school, they may not be able to get a job after. 

Although this is certainly a problem in America as well. Many Harvard grads struggle to get hired in smaller jurisdictions because they are perceived as out of touch and stuck up, and folks wanting to build a career in those jurisdictions are generally better off going to a local school (building a career in Oklahoma is far more likely from an Oklahoma school than from Harvard). I think there is just more resistance in Canada to using money or prestige as the measurement of life success, which is probably fine for some folks who want different things. I think many people do want money and prestige though, and should make decisions accordingly.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Livinginamerica said:

Although this is certainly a problem in America as well. Many Harvard grads struggle to get hired in smaller jurisdictions because they are perceived as out of touch and stuck up, and folks wanting to build a career in those jurisdictions are generally better off going to a local school (building a career in Oklahoma is far more likely from an Oklahoma school than from Harvard). I think there is just more resistance in Canada to using money or prestige as the measurement of life success, which is probably fine for some folks who want different things. I think many people do want money and prestige though, and should make decisions accordingly.

Measure success however you want. I enjoy money. I had an awfully long time without it and I'm perfectly happy sacrificing some other preferences right now to prioritize financial security. I think most Canadians understand taking that view - I certainly haven't received much push-back.

The thing with Canadian law schools is just that there really isn't as much variance as there is in the US. That's partially a function of being a significantly smaller market (with much less international draw) and partially a function of the US having about twice as many law schools as it needs. It simply is harder to say that the UBC student body is any less talented than UT's, whereas it's pretty easy to say that Harvard is simply a head above Northwestern. 

And you're not practicing yet. When you get to biglaw, you'll see that the whole school prestige thing evaporates as soon as people are producing work they get judged on. The only reason anyone cares about Yale/Harvard once you're in the bigshow is because of the network you acquired while there and the family network you may well have already come in with. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2018 at 9:28 PM, theycancallyouhoju said:

Measure success however you want. I enjoy money. I had an awfully long time without it and I'm perfectly happy sacrificing some other preferences right now to prioritize financial security. I think most Canadians understand taking that view - I certainly haven't received much push-back.

The thing with Canadian law schools is just that there really isn't as much variance as there is in the US. That's partially a function of being a significantly smaller market (with much less international draw) and partially a function of the US having about twice as many law schools as it needs. It simply is harder to say that the UBC student body is any less talented than UT's, whereas it's pretty easy to say that Harvard is simply a head above Northwestern. 

And you're not practicing yet. When you get to biglaw, you'll see that the whole school prestige thing evaporates as soon as people are producing work they get judged on. The only reason anyone cares about Yale/Harvard once you're in the bigshow is because of the network you acquired while there and the family network you may well have already come in with. 

+1
I've never understood how people don't understand that good lawyers are judged on their work, not on where they attended school (at least in Ontario).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2018 at 4:25 AM, theycancallyouhoju said:

All the sarcasm in this thread aside, I don’t believe anyone here thinks that all law schools are in all ways equal. The push back is because it wouldn’t be clear how to make a generally useful ranking, in most respects the schools are close enough to not make the differences obvious, and unlike in the U.S., factors other than ranking will play a more significant role in determining where a prospective student should go.

The last one is the clearest. If you want to be a criminal lawyer in Dallas or a biglaw lawyer in NY, going to Harvard is a pretty good choice. If you want to be a criminal lawyer in Vancouver, it’s not really all that clear that UT - even assuming it is the most prestige-y of the prestigious - is a smart choice. Location plays a bigger role in deterring where the consensus would say you ought to go.

It makes much better sense in Canada to ask ‘given that I’d like to/am open to working in x[, and y], in practice area z, where should I go?’ The second piece will help inform pricing risk - e.g. if you only want to be a corporate lawyer, then the UT/Osgoode debate takes a very different tone than if you want to be a family lawyer. 

Finally, board members have very different opinions on what the value of a law school is. I’m a big believer that every law student is 24+ years old, can learn law school topics on their own/Canadian law profs are all certainly good enough, and therefore applicants shouldn’t think too much about ‘quality of instruction’. On top of that, you’re going to do 98% of your learning on the job, so who cares. To my mind, the point of a law school is to be yet one more entry on your job applicant profile. In other words, start figuring out what jobs you might want before you agree to pay tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars for the product that is a law degree, and pick the law school that gives you the best product for buying the job you want. But - maybe I only think that becaus I’m a solicitor admitted in NY, a body of law for which I had exactly zero law school prep and yet seem to do just as fine as my colleagues from the States. Other people think the best thing you can get out of law school is practical experience and knowledge and thus someone with a crim law interest should seek out the best crim law clinic work, for example.

Tl;dr Go to Harvard. 

I'm starting law school at 22 (would've been 21 if I hadn't deferred). And if we could learn law school topics on our own (even if it took 5 instead of 3 yrs) I'm pretty sure that would mean the collapse of the law educational system.

I do however agree with this - 'if you only want to be a corporate lawyer, then the UT/Osgoode debate takes a very different tone than if you want to be a family lawyer.' It's easily assumed that UT/Osgoode/Western are the strongest law schools if people want to walk into corporate law with among the biggest factor being that they are all based in Toronto but there seems to be a complete lack of knowledge on which law schools would be preferable for other fields like criminal, environmental, IP etc. Any insight on this?

I personally feel like law schools need to be ranked on which fields students will eventually want to end up in regardless of the state / city - especially the JD/Masters in Laws programs where students have already earned a bachelors or in some cases even a masters degree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sania said:

I'm starting law school at 22 (would've been 21 if I hadn't deferred). And if we could learn law school topics on our own (even if it took 5 instead of 3 yrs) I'm pretty sure that would mean the collapse of the law educational system.

I do however agree with this - 'if you only want to be a corporate lawyer, then the UT/Osgoode debate takes a very different tone than if you want to be a family lawyer.' It's easily assumed that UT/Osgoode/Western are the strongest law schools if people want to walk into corporate law with among the biggest factor being that they are all based in Toronto but there seems to be a complete lack of knowledge on which law schools would be preferable for other fields like criminal, environmental, IP etc. Any insight on this?

I personally feel like law schools need to be ranked on which fields students will eventually want to end up in regardless of the state / city - especially the JD/Masters in Laws programs where students have already earned a bachelors or in some cases even a masters degree.

Western is in London, aka not Toronto. It's close enough to pop on a VIA for interviews though. The 620 a.m will generally let you make a 9 a.m. meeting but can be late often enough. 

Every school will produce real estate, personal injury, family, criminal lawyers. These are basic courses that all schools offer. These areas also represent a fairly large subset of law that exists outside biglaw. The practice areas lend itself towards small operations (sole/small/mid firms) so the adage of figuring out a practice location rings true as school proximity = easier networking.

It's also harder to compare say family law at one school vs another. Uvic might offer a few more classes than say UNB (no idea, hypothetical here). Neither are all that helpful for someone looking to practice in Kingston. Sure, divorce act is the same across all provinces but many (most?) Of your clients will be separating under provincial legislation. So who cares if in this hypothetical whether Uvic "ranks higher" as it wont help the applicant in their goals?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-05-06 at 4:04 AM, Sania said:

And if we could learn law school topics on our own (even if it took 5 instead of 3 yrs) I'm pretty sure that would mean the collapse of the law educational system.

You can learn legal topics on your own. It’s not even that challenging, for most of the people that get into law school. There’s wisdom in the movie Good Will Hunting: 

Quote

WILL: See the sad thing about a guy like you is in about 50 years you’re gonna start doing some thinking on your own and you’re gonna come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life. One, don't do that. And two, you dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a fuckin’ education you coulda got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the Public Library.

CLARKYeah, but I will have a degree, and you'll be serving my kids fries at a drive-thru on our way to a skiing trip.

The legal education system, and the education system more generally, are stable because we value credentials and certifications. If you get rid of the requirement to hold a legal degree before being a lawyer, you’ll find a whole bunch of people simply study for and pass the bar. Hell, they could probably get it done in a year and a half, not five. The only thing that stops them now is bureaucracy. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

If you get rid of the requirement to hold a legal degree before being a lawyer, you’ll find a whole bunch of people simply study for and pass the bar. Hell, they could probably get it done in a year and a half, not five. The only thing that stops them now is bureaucracy. 

This applies to basically all professions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Constant said:

This applies to basically all professions. 

 

8 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

You can learn legal topics on your own. It’s not even that challenging, for most of the people that get into law school. There’s wisdom in the movie Good Will Hunting: 

The legal education system, and the education system more generally, are stable because we value credentials and certifications. If you get rid of the requirement to hold a legal degree before being a lawyer, you’ll find a whole bunch of people simply study for and pass the bar. Hell, they could probably get it done in a year and a half, not five. The only thing that stops them now is bureaucracy. 

Passing the bar is only the beginning, not the end, of being competent as a lawyer. Passing law school and the bar theoretically passes everyone through a standardized process with minimum requirements, but it is the experience/reputation you gain after that that make or break your career.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just recently I applied for a LOC and then bank had a chart in which derailed the maximum amounts of the LOC for every school. At her top was UBC, U of T, Osgoode, right after Western and another one I can’t recall and at the top it just said “others”. So if the bank lends higher amount to certain universities I would think that the graduates from those schools end up doing the most ( not necessarily the best, they just make more ) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Octavio said:

Just recently I applied for a LOC and then bank had a chart in which derailed the maximum amounts of the LOC for every school. At her top was UBC, U of T, Osgoode, right after Western and another one I can’t recall and at the top it just said “others”. So if the bank lends higher amount to certain universities I would think that the graduates from those schools end up doing the most ( not necessarily the best, they just make more ) 

Or perhaps those universities are more expensive to attend because they have extraordinarily high tuition fees and/or are located in the most expensive parts of the country to inhabit, and thus warrant a higher maximum. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

On 5/26/2018 at 5:26 PM, jan said:

Or perhaps those universities are more expensive to attend because they have extraordinarily high tuition fees and/or are located in the most expensive parts of the country to inhabit, and thus warrant a higher maximum. 

Or that 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/26/2018 at 8:26 PM, jan said:

Or perhaps those universities are more expensive to attend because they have extraordinarily high tuition fees and/or are located in the most expensive parts of the country to inhabit, and thus warrant a higher maximum. 

I dunno, Vancouver is expensive, but it's not so expensive as to outpace UVic, for example. It's also likely not expensive enough to significantly outpace TRU, even though rental prices in Kamloops are much, much lower than Vancouver. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/26/2018 at 9:26 PM, jan said:

Or perhaps those universities are more expensive to attend because they have extraordinarily high tuition fees and/or are located in the most expensive parts of the country to inhabit, and thus warrant a higher maximum. 

I assume he's talking about RBC's "A-List" (IIRC)

Toronto, Osgoode, Western, UBC, UAlberta

Given that Alberta is $13000~ a year and Edmonton isn't crazy expensive, it's likely not based on expensiveness.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Toad said:

I assume he's talking about RBC's "A-List" (IIRC)

Toronto, Osgoode, Western, UBC, UAlberta

Given that Alberta is $13000~ a year and Edmonton isn't crazy expensive, it's likely not based on expensiveness.

 

Poor U of A, always the "[other] one I can’t recall"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/25/2018 at 5:37 PM, Octavio said:

Just recently I applied for a LOC and then bank had a chart in which derailed the maximum amounts of the LOC for every school. At her top was UBC, U of T, Osgoode, right after Western and another one I can’t recall and at the top it just said “others”. So if the bank lends higher amount to certain universities I would think that the graduates from those schools end up doing the most ( not necessarily the best, they just make more ) 

Got LoC from Scotia and they had a max of $125,000 for any law student from any school. If you were in a Canadian school and had good credit you were given the max LoC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/1/2018 at 11:16 PM, Toad said:

I assume he's talking about RBC's "A-List" (IIRC)

Toronto, Osgoode, Western, UBC, UAlberta

Given that Alberta is $13000~ a year and Edmonton isn't crazy expensive, it's likely not based on expensiveness.

 

If we use that logic then Queen's should be in that list as well. As far as I know Queen's is as good as Western/UAlberta if not more. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...