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notcowgirl

Current Canadian Law School Rankings??

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For the record, even in my early 20s, if some guy tried to impress me because he went to a higher-ranked law school, I would probably have laughed in his face. If I wanted someone impressive, I would date an actual lawyer, or a doctor, or maybe a med student. If I wanted to slum it I would look for a real bad boy. 

Not that I would ever be looking for guys on Tinder in the first place though. 

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The question doesn't annoy me. The rankings and applicants' reliance upon them do. Manitoba charges $11,327 in tuition and fees. U of T charges $36,440. This isn't to say people shouldn't attend U of T. But they shouldn't pay $25,113 more per year, just because U of T students get slightly more SCC clerkships and their faculty are cited in more journals.  For most, those factors are extremely unlikely to impact either quality of legal education or eventual careers. The sticker price will. The rankings are based upon factors that don't matter that much. Applicants should decide based upon things that will actually matter to them.

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2 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

The question doesn't annoy me. The rankings and applicants' reliance upon them do. Manitoba charges $11,327 in tuition and fees. U of T charges $36,440. This isn't to say people shouldn't attend U of T. But they shouldn't pay $25,113 more per year, just because U of T students get slightly more SCC clerkships and their faculty are cited in more journals.  For most, those factors are extremely unlikely to impact either quality of legal education or eventual careers. The sticker price will. The rankings are based upon factors that don't matter that much. Applicants should decide based upon things that will actually matter to them.

What advice do you have for incoming students who don’t really have an idea of what area of law they want to practice? 

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3 minutes ago, notcowgirl said:

What advice do you have for incoming students who don’t really have an idea of what area of law they want to practice? 

Most people don't have an idea of what area of law they want to practice, and figure it out in law school. Or change their mind about what they want to do once they get to law school. Any Canadian law school will prepare you to practice any area of law. And it is your articling experience that will actually teach you the area you want to go into. So as has been said here many times, you should pick a school based on where you want to live and practice (it is much harder to move from one city or province to another after graduating) and the financial cost and your ability to take on debt, etc. I wouldn't go to a school in an area where you definitely don't plan to live, and I wouldn't pay an extra 75K plus higher living costs just to say you went somewhere more "prestigious."

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13 minutes ago, providence said:

For the record, even in my early 20s, if some guy tried to impress me because he went to a higher-ranked law school, I would probably have laughed in his face. If I wanted someone impressive, I would date an actual lawyer, or a doctor, or maybe a med student. If I wanted to slum it I would look for a real bad boy. 

Not that I would ever be looking for guys on Tinder in the first place though. 

Lol. What made you feel the need to insult others for the record? 

 

BTW - do you have a bf? Based on your posts, it’s unclear.

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I'm not sure I fully understand the sentiments that are commonly expressed on this site, particularly statements like "so-called prestige does not matter" or "rankings do not matter." While I understand the arguments in favour of these claims, I'm not sure that they suffice in showing that rankings or so-called prestige are completely irrelevant. In other words, from my understanding, prestige and rankings mean something, but what that something amounts to, is an open-question.

 

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3 minutes ago, RobertCalifornia said:

Lol. What made you feel the need to insult others for the record? 

 

BTW - do you have a bf? Based on your posts, it’s unclear.

LOL. I'm not insulting anyone. I'm just saying that being a law student at X law school is not that impressive. I was in law school. I wasn't that impressive. I'm a lawyer. I'm still not that impressive.

I am engaged. To a lawyer. He's impressive, but for who he is, not what he does.

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2 minutes ago, PhilosophyofLaw said:

I'm not sure I fully understand the sentiments that are commonly expressed on this site, particularly statements like "so-called prestige does not matter" or "rankings do not matter." While I understand the arguments in favour of these claims, I'm not sure that they suffice in showing that rankings or so-called prestige are completely irrelevant. In other words, from my understanding, prestige and rankings mean something, but what that something amounts to, is an open-question.

 

They may matter depending what you want to do. If you somehow know before going to law school that your heart is set on clerking for the SCC, and you're confident that you're going to be in the top 5-10% of the class, then it matters. If you know you definitely want to work on Bay Street and are likely to be competitive for that, it matters to a point, and you definitely want to go to school in ON and preferably Toronto if at all possible. Also, they matter in the sense that someone who is middle of the pack at U of T is probably viewed as smarter than someone who is middle of the pack at Windsor. Going to a more "prestigious" school means you probably have higher stats and are in a more competitive class. So you get to rub shoulders and compete with more accomplished people and network with them later. I agree that that is definitely worth something. Whether it's worth 75K + is another matter. 

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13 minutes ago, PhilosophyofLaw said:

I'm not sure I fully understand the sentiments that are commonly expressed on this site, particularly statements like "so-called prestige does not matter" or "rankings do not matter." While I understand the arguments in favour of these claims, I'm not sure that they suffice in showing that rankings or so-called prestige are completely irrelevant. In other words, from my understanding, prestige and rankings mean something, but what that something amounts to, is an open-question.

 

When I entered the word "prestige" into the search bar, it came back with 2281 results. We can discuss the value of prestige, but trust me, we won't break any new ground. For the sake of older posters' sanity, I'd ask people to read the existing arguments on the subject before starting new ones. 

Edit for example:

 

Edited by realpseudonym
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2 minutes ago, providence said:

They may matter depending what you want to do. If you somehow know before going to law school that your heart is set on clerking for the SCC, and you're confident that you're going to be in the top 5-10% of the class, then it matters. If you know you definitely want to work on Bay Street and are likely to be competitive for that, it matters to a point, and you definitely want to go to school in ON and preferably Toronto if at all possible. Also, they matter in the sense that someone who is middle of the pack at U of T is probably viewed as smarter than someone who is middle of the pack at Windsor. Going to a more "prestigious" school means you probably have higher stats and are in a more competitive class. So you get to rub shoulders and compete with more accomplished people and network with them later. I agree that that is definitely worth something. Whether it's worth 75K + is another matter. 

Thanks for the response - as many veterans on this site have noted, this topic has been discussed ad-nauseam. So, perhaps I will just ask one last question:  Is - dare I say it again - "prestige" relevant if your intention is to get into academia? 

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Just now, PhilosophyofLaw said:

Thanks for the response - as many veterans on this site have noted, this topic has been discussed ad-nauseam. So, perhaps I will just ask one last question:  Is - dare I say it again - "prestige" relevant if your intention is to get into academia? 

I would say so - having research opportunities with and reference letters from profs whose research is more widely recognized and who may have connections to other highly-regarded academics and so on would be important. And getting good grades in a more competitive environment would prepare you for further study. Plus clerking would be a really good thing to do for a future academic, and certain schools do place more clerks (U of T, Osgoode, McGill.) 

However, I'd also balance that with cost - if you're planning to go into academia, you need an LL.M. and J.S.D. and that is going to be expensive. If you're doing that all on loans and then going into the uncertainty of the academic job market..... yikes! 

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54 minutes ago, PhilosophyofLaw said:

Thanks for the response - as many veterans on this site have noted, this topic has been discussed ad-nauseam. So, perhaps I will just ask one last question:  Is - dare I say it again - "prestige" relevant if your intention is to get into academia? 

It doesn't matter all that much whether you do your JD at a particularly prestigious school, as you will have to do grad studies in law.  Where you do those grad studies matters more. 

I didn't do my JD anywhere prestigious, but my LLM and doctorate are from prestgious schools.  That being said, my JD school had a few famous people in the field that I wanted to go into, so I did have the advantage of having co-publications and research opportunities with leaders in the field.  I'm not sure how much that affected my future career.  It probably helped me apply for some funding early in my grad school career.  Those contacts likely didn't make a difference as between me getting into a grad program or not, as I had really good JD grades and a supervisor at my prospective school who was willing to work with me.  My JD connections also didn't likely help me get an academic job, as by that point, my references were from grad school. 

I'm going to disagree with the above point--that you should get used to getting good grades in a competitive environment.  Grad grades are high and aren't curved (except maybe the mandatory theory seminars that many schools have, although that would still be something like an A- curve), so the potentially more competitive environment doesn't really matter.  Also, writing is a pretty different skill set than exam writing. 

I would also disagree, to some extent, about grad school being expensive.  LLM tuition is much cheaper than JD tuition and you can often receive generous scholarships.  And you should never, ever pay to do a doctorate in law.  You should receive a funding package that is sufficient to pay tuition and to live on (very modestly, but you can supplement it with teaching, contract work, etc.).  So yes, there is foregone income, but I wouldn't characterize it as expensive.

Edited by ProfReader
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1 hour ago, providence said:

If you know you definitely want to work on Bay Street and are likely to be competitive for that, it matters to a point, and you definitely want to go to school in ON and preferably Toronto if at all possible. Also, they matter in the sense that someone who is middle of the pack at U of T is probably viewed as smarter than someone who is middle of the pack at Windsor. Going to a more "prestigious" school means you probably have higher stats and are in a more competitive class. So you get to rub shoulders and compete with more accomplished people and network with them later. I agree that that is definitely worth something. Whether it's worth 75K + is another matter. 

If your goal is Bay Street then the U of T is worth the extra money. 

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2 hours ago, harveyspecter993 said:

If you're a guy, it helps to know which law school girls on tinder will be more impressed by.

Harvard.

1 hour ago, Draken said:

This is early 20's men we are talking about, no price too high, no bridge too far.

Yeah 2017 really confirmed that it’s an age thing. 

 

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1 hour ago, providence said:

For the record, even in my early 20s, if some guy tried to impress me because he went to a higher-ranked law school, I would probably have laughed in his face. If I wanted someone impressive, I would date an actual lawyer, or a doctor, or maybe a med student. If I wanted to slum it I would look for a real bad boy. 

Not that I would ever be looking for guys on Tinder in the first place though. 

Though, with respect, it’s worth considering an investment in a law student. Sure, you have three years of pretending there’s something cute about referring to the Chief Justice as ‘Bev’ and that ‘but was there offer and acceptance’ jokes actually qualify as jokes, but for the low, low price of not reminding someone who acts like Mr./Ms. Bigshot come 3L that they collapsed in fear of sending a thank you email in 2L, you can one day have a fairly nice apartment that you hang out in alone.

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5 minutes ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

Though, with respect, it’s worth considering an investment in a law student. Sure, you have three years of pretending there’s something cute about referring to the Chief Justice as ‘Bev’ and that ‘but was there offer and acceptance’ jokes actually qualify as jokes, but for the low, low price of not reminding someone who acts like Mr./Ms. Bigshot come 3L that they collapsed in fear of sending a thank you email in 2L, you can one day have a fairly nice apartment that you hang out in alone.

Yeah but the guys who try to impress women with prestigious law schools usually don’t want a 3-year and further relationship. They want to lure women into casual sex by pretending they want commitment and have something to offer.

And don’t make me depressed about my life....

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28 minutes ago, Constant said:

If your goal is Bay Street then the U of T is worth the extra money. 

For sure, as long as you accept that you might not make it to Bay Street or might not like it and you can still absorb the price differential. 

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43 minutes ago, ProfReader said:

It doesn't matter all that much whether you do your JD at a particularly prestigious school, as you will have to do grad studies in law.  Where you do those grad studies matters more. 

I didn't do my JD anywhere prestigious, but my LLM and doctorate are from prestgious schools.  That being said, my JD school had a few famous people in the field that I wanted to go into, so I did have the advantage of having co-publications and research opportunities with leaders in the field.  I'm not sure how much that affected my future career.  It probably helped me apply for some funding early in my grad school career.  Those contacts likely didn't make a difference as between me getting into a grad program or not, as I had really good JD grades and a supervisor at my prospective school who was willing to work with me.  My JD connections also didn't likely help me get an academic job, as by that point, my references were from grad school. 

I'm going to disagree with the above point--that you should get used to getting good grades in a competitive environment.  Grad grades are high and aren't curved (except maybe the mandatory theory seminars that many schools have, although that would still be something like an A- curve), so the potentially more competitive environment doesn't really matter.  Also, writing is a pretty different skill set than exam writing. 

I would also disagree, to some extent, about grad school being expensive.  LLM tuition is much cheaper than JD tuition and you can often receive generous scholarships.  And you should never, ever pay to do a doctorate in law.  You should receive a funding package that is sufficient to pay tuition and to live on (very modestly, but you can supplement it with teaching, contract work, etc.).  So yes, there is foregone income, but I wouldn't characterize it as expensive.

It’s not expensive? :huh: Then how come I can’t afford it?

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6 minutes ago, providence said:

Yeah but the guys who try to impress women with prestigious law schools usually don’t want a 3-year and further relationship. They want to lure women into casual sex by pretending they want commitment and have something to offer.

And don’t make me depressed about my life....

Then it appears I did it wrong. 

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2 minutes ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

Then it appears I did it wrong. 

You tried to impress women with your law school so you could have casual sex but ended up with a serious relationship? Or you tried to impress women with your law school to get a serious relationship and didn’t end up with one?:)

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