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Current Canadian Law School Rankings??

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Can confirm the RBC tier list is based off average earning power, and the ability of graduates from those schools to pay back their loan. Thus the bank is willing to extend more credit to those more likely to pay it back.

Source- I was with RBC before going to Scotia for the superior product

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On 6/15/2018 at 9:38 AM, bhaywardio said:

Can confirm the RBC tier list is based off average earning power, and the ability of graduates from those schools to pay back their loan. Thus the bank is willing to extend more credit to those more likely to pay it back.

Source- I was with RBC before going to Scotia for the superior product

Strange how McGill doesn't make the cut for RBC's A-list, in that case. 

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15 hours ago, harveyspecter993 said:

Strange how McGill doesn't make the cut for RBC's A-list, in that case. 

Mcgillians likely don't apply to RBC then for whatever reason. No idea why that would be, but that's a probable cause.

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15 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

Mcgillians likely don't apply to RBC then for whatever reason. No idea why that would be, but that's a probable cause.

Quebec salaries are super low, relative to other markets. That could explain it. 

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4 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Quebec salaries are super low, relative to other markets. That could explain it. 

Not really. In fact, BC seems to pay less generally across practices than Quebec..

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Not directly related to law school ranking, but a healthy reminded that the success of a school's graduates isn't necessarily a measure of school quality.

NYC has elite high schools whose graduates overwhelmingly place at Ivy League (or equivalent) universities.  Signs that they're good schools right?  Hmm, not so much, according to the Brookings Institute:  https://www.brookings.edu/research/evidence-on-new-york-city-and-boston-exam-schools/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=es

Their research suggests that students who are "just" admitted to those schools don't do any better than students who "just" miss the admissions cut-off (i.e., functionally identical students who differ only in the schools they attend).  In other words, where kids go to school has no impact on whether they attend ivy league schools, suggesting that the "quality" impact of the elite schools are overrated.  They found similar results for schools in Boston too.  If elite schools place better than non-elite schools, the data suggests its because they admit elite students, not that they're better schools.  

Something to keep in mind while ranking law schools.  

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, maximumbob said:

Not directly related to law school ranking, but a healthy reminded that the success of a school's graduates isn't necessarily a measure of school quality.

NYC has elite high schools whose graduates overwhelmingly place at Ivy League (or equivalent) universities.  Signs that they're good schools right?  Hmm, not so much, according to the Brookings Institute:  https://www.brookings.edu/research/evidence-on-new-york-city-and-boston-exam-schools/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=es

Their research suggests that students who are "just" admitted to those schools don't do any better than students who "just" miss the admissions cut-off (i.e., functionally identical students who differ only in the schools they attend).  In other words, where kids go to school has no impact on whether they attend ivy league schools, suggesting that the "quality" impact of the elite schools are overrated.  They found similar results for schools in Boston too.  If elite schools place better than non-elite schools, the data suggests its because they admit elite students, not that they're better schools.  

Something to keep in mind while ranking law schools.  

Interesting post.

While these findings would alter how we think about rankings, I do not think they would change the rankings themselves. Whether the school actually produces better candidates or simply gives them a better "wrapper" to market their services, at the end of the day, candidates from elite schools are being hired in favour of candidates from non-elite schools. But as you said, not directly related to law school rankings. 

I also wonder whether the findings are applicable to a Canadian context given that we place less weight on prestige. That being said, I have seen some posters on this forum somewhat disagree with this notion and assert that Canada has more of "an old boy's club" culture than the US does. 

Edited by Trew

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4 minutes ago, Trew said:

Interesting post.

While these findings would alter how we think about rankings, I do not think they would change the rankings themselves. Whether the school actually produces better candidates or simply gives them a better "wrapper" to market their services, at the end of the day, candidates from elite schools are being hired in favour of candidates from non-elite schools. But as you said, not directly related to law school rankings. 

I also wonder whether the findings are applicable to a Canadian context given that we place less weight on prestige. That being said, I have seen some posters on this forum somewhat disagree with this notion and assert that Canada has more of "an old boy's club" culture than the US does. 

That's not what the study says. What it says is that candidates with similar features (e.g. similar test scores) go to ivy league schools at the same rate no matter whether they go to elite schools or not - i.e. they neither produce better candidates nor provide a better wrapper. Their apparent success in get students in at ivy leagues is solely a function of the quality of the students they admit, and had those students gone to other schools, they'd be just as likely to go to ivy leagues. 

I'd wager candidates with similar characteristics (LSAT/undergrad stats, work, etc) get hired by biglaw firms at the same rate regardless of whether they go to UofT or other schools. UofT has more students with high LSAT/Undergrad stats, prior work experience, etc., so places more candidates in biglaw (just like elite high schools have more students with high test scores so place more in ivy league schools), but it's a function of higher student quality, not the school itself.  

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1 hour ago, maximumbob said:

That's not what the study says. What it says is that candidates with similar features (e.g. similar test scores) go to ivy league schools at the same rate no matter whether they go to elite schools or not - i.e. they neither produce better candidates nor provide a better wrapper. Their apparent success in get students in at ivy leagues is solely a function of the quality of the students they admit, and had those students gone to other schools, they'd be just as likely to go to ivy leagues. 

I'd wager candidates with similar characteristics (LSAT/undergrad stats, work, etc) get hired by biglaw firms at the same rate regardless of whether they go to UofT or other schools. UofT has more students with high LSAT/Undergrad stats, prior work experience, etc., so places more candidates in biglaw (just like elite high schools have more students with high test scores so place more in ivy league schools), but it's a function of higher student quality, not the school itself.  

So then everyone who gets in to all Canadian schools, should really go to the cheapest schools that allows the most number of jurisdictions to practise in. 

 

McGill. :)

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58 minutes ago, maximumbob said:

That's not what the study says. What it says is that candidates with similar features (e.g. similar test scores) go to ivy league schools at the same rate no matter whether they go to elite schools or not - i.e. they neither produce better candidates nor provide a better wrapper. Their apparent success in get students in at ivy leagues is solely a function of the quality of the students they admit, and had those students gone to other schools, they'd be just as likely to go to ivy leagues. 

I'd wager candidates with similar characteristics (LSAT/undergrad stats, work, etc) get hired by biglaw firms at the same rate regardless of whether they go to UofT or other schools. UofT has more students with high LSAT/Undergrad stats, prior work experience, etc., so places more candidates in biglaw (just like elite high schools have more students with high test scores so place more in ivy league schools), but it's a function of higher student quality, not the school itself.  

In the US context, it is really hard to get the SAT scores for Ivy League and super elite colleges if you go to a high school in a poor neighbourhood. US college applications are way different than Canadian applications. You have to write the standardized PSATs and SATs, and poor schools do not have the resources to prepare students in the same way. The top students get National Merit Awards as well as special awards for African-American top achievers.

My high school had never had a National Merit winner until me and hasn’t had one since. They still have my picture up because of it. If you are a National Merit winner, you can send your profile to a couple of top colleges of your choice for pre-consideration. Elite high schools produce several of these winners every year. 

Top colleges don’t care what high school you went to, but they want top stats and award winners. So I agree that Ivies have more of those kids with the good stats which then makes the learning environment more competitive, and that their curriculum, professors etc probably aren’t better in and of themselves. 

I do think though that if there is a more competitive student body, then an A from that school is a greater achievement than an A from a school with less competitive students. And I do think that some law firms recognize and account for that. 

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7 hours ago, maximumbob said:

Not directly related to law school ranking, but a healthy reminded that the success of a school's graduates isn't necessarily a measure of school quality.

NYC has elite high schools whose graduates overwhelmingly place at Ivy League (or equivalent) universities.  Signs that they're good schools right?  Hmm, not so much, according to the Brookings Institute:  https://www.brookings.edu/research/evidence-on-new-york-city-and-boston-exam-schools/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=es

Their research suggests that students who are "just" admitted to those schools don't do any better than students who "just" miss the admissions cut-off (i.e., functionally identical students who differ only in the schools they attend).  In other words, where kids go to school has no impact on whether they attend ivy league schools, suggesting that the "quality" impact of the elite schools are overrated.  They found similar results for schools in Boston too.  If elite schools place better than non-elite schools, the data suggests its because they admit elite students, not that they're better schools.  

Something to keep in mind while ranking law schools.  

So you suggest that there is no ranking for law schools in Canada, then why is there so much emphasis on getting admitted to schools like UofT?

From where I come from, it really matters which school you go when you apply for a job, and a student have a better chance than another student with similar grades but from a less prestigious school.

I agree that the success of a school's graduates isn't a measure of school's quality, though I think when it comes to all matters being similar the school name would be the tie-breaker.

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2 hours ago, krnprykt said:

So you suggest that there is no ranking for law schools in Canada, then why is there so much emphasis on getting admitted to schools like UofT?

From where I come from, it really matters which school you go when you apply for a job, and a student have a better chance than another student with similar grades but from a less prestigious school.

I agree that the success of a school's graduates isn't a measure of school's quality, though I think when it comes to all matters being similar the school name would be the tie-breaker.

 

The general advice around here is 'go to school where you want to practice'.

 

Toronto has two law schools - one in downtown, one further out. It also has a huge amount of national and international business, and pays very good wages for the people working in it. If you want to work in that environment, and subscribe to the 'go to school where you want to practice', there are advantages to going to school in Toronto. (Greater) Toronto also contains nearly 20% of the entire Canadian population, which means if you want to work in any of criminal, wills, family, etc etc, a large amount of it will happen there, and a large number of lawyers will work there to service the demand. Again, if you want to go to school where you want to work...

 

If you want to work in rural Saskatchewan, then going to the little law school on the prairie, which will teach you local law and help you build connections with prairie practices is probably better, whatever name brand you think you'd get from UoT. However, most people going to law school, in common with most Canadians, are not desperately trying to find ways to move to rural Saskatchewan, so don't need to go to school there for that benefit.

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, krnprykt said:

So you suggest that there is no ranking for law schools in Canada, then why is there so much emphasis on getting admitted to schools like UofT?

From where I come from, it really matters which school you go when you apply for a job, and a student have a better chance than another student with similar grades but from a less prestigious school.

I agree that the success of a school's graduates isn't a measure of school's quality, though I think when it comes to all matters being similar the school name would be the tie-breaker.

To answer you question, it’s because people are singularly ill-informed about the legal market - the people who make the biggest deal about rankings are law students and 0Ls who know, literally, nothing about the legal market.  And it helps those people who want to go to school in Toronto rationalize (in their minds, at least) the hefty premium they pay.  

You may be right that someone from UofT  will be more successful than a student with the same grades from, say, Windsor - in fact, you are right.  But that doesn’t disprove my point.  After all, if UofT has higher student quality - my thesis, and well supported from the evidence - an average student at UofT is a stronger candidate, all else being equal, then an average student at Windsor.  And they would be a stronger candidate than an average student at Windsor had they gone to Windsor instead of UofT.   We wouldn’t expect an “average” UofT student to be an “average” Windsor student.  

The test isn’t whether an average UofT student does better than an average Windsor student, it’s whether a an average UofT student does better than a Windsor student who has the same student specific characteristics as the average UofT student.  At least in my experience, I don’t think that’s true.  

 

Edited by maximumbob
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10 hours ago, providence said:

 

I do think though that if there is a more competitive student body, then an A from that school is a greater achievement than an A from a school with less competitive students. And I do think that some law firms recognize and account for that. 

Well, by definition that’s true if law schools grade on a curve, as they do.  So, yes, a B+ from UofT counts more than a B+ from Windsor.  On the other hand, if the B+ student from UofT had gone to Windsor, and was competing with the less competitive students from Windsor, should we expect that his or her class ranking would be unchanged?  Would th B+ student from Windsor still be a B+ student in the more competitive environment of UofT?  Doesn’t seem likely, does it?  

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, maximumbob said:

Well, by definition that’s true if law schools grade on a curve, as they do.  So, yes, a B+ from UofT counts more than a B+ from Windsor.  On the other hand, if the B+ student from UofT had gone to Windsor, and was competing with the less competitive students from Windsor, should we expect that his or her class ranking would be unchanged?  Would th B+ student from Windsor still be a B+ student in the more competitive environment of UofT?  Doesn’t seem likely, does it?  

 

That's what I'm saying, yes. So it's hard to understand the following. How can they have the same student specific characteristics when their grades and curve used are different? Do you mean they have the same entrance stats? Same undergrad experiences? Same extra-curriculars?  How do employers look at class rank between the different schools?

I don't know how you could know that. How would you know if the gold medalist at Windsor is a brilliant person who could also have been the gold medalist at U of T, they are that focused and smart, but chose to go to Windsor instead of U of T for whatever personal reason (cheaper, closer to home, likes the ethos at Windsor....)? Or if they are someone who would have been intimidated by the competition at U of T and not done that well? Or if they didn't even get into U of T but worked very, very hard at Windsor and came into their own? And same for any A student at Windsor?

3 hours ago, maximumbob said:

The test isn’t whether an average UofT student does better than an average Windsor student, it’s whether a an average UofT student does better than a Windsor student who has the same student specific characteristics as the average UofT student.  At least in my experience, I don’t think that’s true.  

 

 

Edited by providence

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Jumping in on the original ranking discussion. This could be unpopular, but it’s late at night so the heck with it. 

The fairest way to rank, in Canada, IMO, isn’t straight rankings, but rankings as most of the major banks do in groups (in regards to their LOC’s). 

 

Group A: University of Toronto, Osgoode Hall Law School, McGill University, University of British Columbia

 

Group B: Queens University, Western University, University of Alberta

 

Group C: Everyone Else** 

 

**Group D: Thompson River University, Lakehead University

 

source: RBC, TD Bank

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The fairest way to rank, in Canada, IMO, isn’t straight rankings, but rankings as most of the major banks do in groups (in regards to their LOC’s).



No, the fairest way is to not try to rank schools. Seriously, I don't get why people are so focused on imaginary rankings. And to go by whatever type of ranking that the banks do for their LOCs, is just silly. I'm not sure that those bank lists really mean anything anyway. I haven't seen students from schools other than those in Group A have difficulty getting approved for LOCs.

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9 hours ago, LibertyAndJustice said:

The fairest way to rank, in Canada, IMO, isn’t straight rankings, but rankings as most of the major banks do in groups (in regards to their LOC’s). 

 

More than anything, that looks like a ranking of who needs to borrow the most money to go to law school. Toronto and Osgoode have highest tuition, UBC has Vancouver cost of living, McGill has extra year of not working.

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1 hour ago, erinl2 said:



No, the fairest way is to not try to rank schools. Seriously, I don't get why people are so focused on imaginary rankings. And to go by whatever type of ranking that the banks do for their LOCs, is just silly. I'm not sure that those bank lists really mean anything anyway. I haven't seen students from schools other than those in Group A have difficulty getting approved for LOCs.

That’s odd as I have heard something to the opposite - it is near impossible to not get approval for students attending say, U of T or Osgoode, where it can be more challenging to get approval for say, Thompson River. I could be wrong though. 

 

Didn’t mean to stir the pot, but that’s just how our major Canadian financial institutions “rank” the schools. Meant no offence by posting it, just thought it may be illuminating for the topic at hand. 

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, LibertyAndJustice said:

That’s odd as I have heard something to the opposite - it is near impossible to not get approval for students attending say, U of T or Osgoode, where it can be more challenging to get approval for say, Thompson River. I could be wrong though. 

I'm pretty sure they pertain to the amount of the loan, not eligibility thereof.

Do you really think someone with an 800 credit score who goes to TRU will not get approved? If so, you're basically saying that banks will not lend to anyone who goes to TRU.

Of course, you could argue that a lower credit score at TRU vs. a lower credit score at another school may have a different result, but in any case, these are two banks' rankings, which aren't even accepted across all financial institutions.

Edited by Trew
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