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tjbiz

[Split] Re discouraging advice on chances

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3 minutes ago, tjbiz said:

I'm not saying this as in "wish upon a star and it will come true". What I mean by if law school is your end goal, you will make it happen is you have to work hard. The poster clearly has low chances, there is no denying that, but if law school is truly what he/she wants, then what needs to be done will be to get exactly to that place. 

There's clearly a difference between being delusional and setting realistic goals. I know several people who are lawyers now who have went back to school 1-2 more years to upgrade their marks, some have added MA's even PhD's or work experience. Do not underestimate the personal statement. It played an essential role in my friend who had a 3.4 get into McGill law. 

Congrats to Meghan Markle btw, but that's a poor comparison. Even if you tried hard, you probably wouldn't get her. A lot of people on here are mad for no reason. If law school is what you want, make it happen. There's no reason to focus on the negatives. It also never hurts to try.

The “if you want it bad enough you can make it happen” argument is disturbingly similar to “if you just try to stop being sad you won’t be depressed anymore” argument. It’s not rational. That’s not how life works. “Anything is possible if you just believe and try your best” is a fairytale and it helps no one to suggest otherwise. I’m not saying OP can’t get into law school, because I don’t know if it’s doable or not. Similarly, you should not promise that they will get accepted because you don’t know either. OP asked a question and people are answering it as honestly as they can. Just because they say something that you don’t like doesn’t mean they’re just being mean and pessimistic. 

OP, good luck, write your test, write a great PS, I hope everything goes well. Personally, I know that I wouldn’t want people to build up my hopes with empty promises, I would want people to be honest with me, and I think that’s what people here are trying to do. No one seems to be saying mean things, just answering the questions you asked. 

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But no one is promising anything, I'm saying it does not hurt to try. I never once said law school is happening. Heck, what do I know? I'm not on the admissions committee. Mind you OP has not even written the LSAT yet. If he/she doesn't get in this year, but law school is the aim -- work hard and do what you have to do and try again next year. That's all I'm saying. 

 

Edited by tjbiz
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17 hours ago, tjbiz said:

I think there's a lot of pessimism on this post. You will never know unless you try. Even if you don't get in this cycle, you can work on improving your chances next year. If law school is your end goal, you will make it happen. But I'd say try out the LSAT, you might score high enough to get into one of the schools. Writing a compelling personal statement also can get you a long way. Trust yourself and the process. What is meant to be will be, but that's just insight. Whatever happens, if it's what you truly want, it'll work out eventually. 

 

6 minutes ago, tjbiz said:

But no one is promising anything, I'm saying it does not hurt to try. I never once said law school is happening. Heck, what do I know? I'm not on the admissions committee. Mind you OP has not even written the LSAT yet. If he/she doesn't get in this year, but law school is the aim -- work hard and do what you have to do and try again next year. That's all I'm saying. 

 

 

(Emphasis mine)

Edited by illyria281
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2 hours ago, epeeist said:

Wait a sec. You're essentially insulting everyone who doesn't get into law school, telling them it's not that hard and with more effort they would have gotten in. WRONG, and even cruel.

No, my statement is 100% true. Getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard," possibly challenging for some people at best. Also, my statement was not supposed to be insulting if it is then it's a dose of reality and a testament to your character. 

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Is this the time of year when all the students who are applying to law school come around and tell all the lawyers that we're full of shit and don't know anything? And that all the students who aren't in law school yet have superior insight and should be listened to instead? Did I miss the Goggle alert?

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3 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

No, my statement is 100% true. Getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard," possibly challenging for some people at best. Also, my statement was not supposed to be insulting if it is then it's a dose of reality and a testament to your character. 

I'm sorry... what? Could you explain a bit more what you're getting at here? 

Can't tell from your posts if you're a 0L/current student/already a lawyer but I'm curious since you're making quite the bold claim. I'm assuming you're already a practicing lawyer if you're comfortable making that statement?

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6 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

No, my statement is 100% true. Getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard," possibly challenging for some people at best. Also, my statement was not supposed to be insulting if it is then it's a dose of reality and a testament to your character. 

So to be clear, you would feel comfortable looking into the face of an autistic man whose disability makes literacy above a grade 3 level literally impossible to him, who has always dreamed of being a lawyer, whose episodes are best calmed by watching a television show akin to Suits or Law and Order and telling him that getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard"? That it's "challenging at best"? 

Your right, @epeeist's statement is a testament to his character. It shows that he understands the privilege he has been afforded in life and that many people are not as privileged. 

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6 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

No, my statement is 100% true. Getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard," possibly challenging for some people at best. Also, my statement was not supposed to be insulting if it is then it's a dose of reality and a testament to your character. 

Wow...I'm impressed. Your opinion is "100% true." Do you have other opinions with similar certainty?

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37 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

No, my statement is 100% true. Getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard," possibly challenging for some people at best. Also, my statement was not supposed to be insulting if it is then it's a dose of reality and a testament to your character. 

 

It's like, becoming Prime Minister isn't hard, it's a simple two stage process - become an MP, persuade half the other MPs to vote for you. This is possibly challenging for some people.

 

[Edit to provide something which is actually useful]: OP, sit the LSAT. Try to do well. If you don't do well, consider re-sitting. But be aware that with that GPA, to be accepted, you're likely going to need at least one of: additional courses to bring it up, a school which drops worst credits, a school which drops worst years, an exceptional LSAT. 

 

The only school which averages LSAT scores is Alberta, so if you're not planning on going there, writing the test does you no downside, and can help you make a more informed decision about whether potential admission is something you should be putting more time and money into.

 

Edited by lookingaround
add something useful for OP.
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40 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

So to be clear, you would feel comfortable looking into the face of an autistic man whose disability makes literacy above a grade 3 level literally impossible to him, who has always dreamed of being a lawyer, whose episodes are best calmed by watching a television show akin to Suits or Law and Order and telling him that getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard"? That it's "challenging at best"? 

Your right, @epeeist's statement is a testament to his character. It shows that he understands the privilege he has been afforded in life and that many people are not as privileged. 

No, I did not state that; so, please don't misconstrue my words. To be clear, for the average person it is not hard but a challenge at best. If you really need evidence let me point towards, Haben Girma, a Harvard Law graduate who is both blind and deaf which is outstanding. Also, your proposed example is preposterous but I will entertain it and point you towards Erik Weber who is an adult with autism and practices special education law. Anyways, I am done arguing, I hope all of you have a good week.:)

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2 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

No, I did not state that; so, please don't misconstrue my words. To be clear, for the average person it is not hard but a challenge at best. If you really need evidence let me point towards, Haben Girma, a Harvard Law graduate who is both blind and deaf which is outstanding. Also, your proposed example is preposterous but I will entertain it and point you towards Erik Weber who is an adult with autism and practices special education law. Anyways, I am done arguing, I hope all of you have a good week.:)

You can't make blanket statements based on two outliers. Those are undoubtedly exceptional people, but you're making a very broad generalization based on 2 cases alone.  

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1 hour ago, UofT100 said:

No, my statement is 100% true. Getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard," possibly challenging for some people at best. Also, my statement was not supposed to be insulting if it is then it's a dose of reality and a testament to your character. 

What is the difference between "hard" and "challenging?"

I would imagine that for the vast majority of people, there are parts of getting into law school or becoming a lawyer that are hard, challenging and/or difficult. Yes, there are probably some people for whom everything goes smoothly - they are able to complete their undergraduate degrees with good grades and no personal or financial struggles, they are able to write the LSAT with no problems paying the fee and get a good score with minimum preparation, they understand the application process and are able to navigate that easily to get into their first choice of school, they have no financial issues with law school tuition, they understand the classroom material and get good grades with minimal effort, they never have any personal or emotional problems during law school, they are able to pass the bar exam easily, they cruise through the job search to their first choice of articling position, their articles go well, are exactly what they expect, their firm loves them, and hires them back. There are people like this. But most people have bumps along the way.

It's not necessarily that the material is intellectually difficult for them but there are all kinds of hurdles and obstacles that arise during the 8+ years it takes to become a lawyer. I was fortunate in that I got good grades throughout my undergrad and law school and had no issues with the LSAT, and I didn't have to study like crazy for any of those things. But I would never say that becoming a lawyer was easy or "not hard." I became a single parent at a very young age so I had to do my undergrad studies in less than ideal circumstances. The work was not hard but finding the time to do it was between working and raising a family on my own and . Then when I was applying to law school, I had absolutely no guidance or support as to what I was doing. I had a hard time scraping up the LSAT fees. I didn't even get to do one practice test in one sitting - I had to do it section by section. I didn't always have power or food during that time. Then a personal issue arose and I had to defer law school for a year. And when I finally went, I knew in my heart that it was going to end the relationship I was in and drive a further wedge between my family and I.

Then when I got to law school I had no idea what I was doing for about two months and the culture of law school and lifestyles of a lot of the students were a struggle. Money was a constant issue. And then just when I figured things out personally,  I had a personal crisis, and the breakup I had feared, all right around first term exams. After that it got better and my grades were always top 10%, but I would never, ever say any of it was easy. I still had to figure out what I wanted to do with my law degree, which was a torturous process for me, and there were all kinds of ups and downs studying as a single mother.  Sometimes it still amazes me that I actually stuck with it because there were so many times that I wanted to quit.

So when you say it's "not that hard", that's an experience I certainly never had. 

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1 hour ago, UofT100 said:

No, my statement is 100% true. Getting into law school or becoming a lawyer is not "hard," possibly challenging for some people at best. Also, my statement was not supposed to be insulting if it is then it's a dose of reality and a testament to your character. 

Your statement is 100% false

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1 hour ago, UofT100 said:

No, I did not state that; so, please don't misconstrue my words. To be clear, for the average person it is not hard but a challenge at best. If you really need evidence let me point towards, Haben Girma, a Harvard Law graduate who is both blind and deaf which is outstanding. Also, your proposed example is preposterous but I will entertain it and point you towards Erik Weber who is an adult with autism and practices special education law. Anyways, I am done arguing, I hope all of you have a good week.

What do you mean you didn't state that? You said that law school is not hard, and is only possibly "challenging" for some people. Unless people with autism aren't "people" under your definition, that's exactly what you stated. 

You'll be shocked to know that being both blind and deaf doesn't affect your intelligence. Why is getting into law school "not hard" for most but "outstanding" for a deafblind person? 

You'll also be shocked to learn of the existence of high functioning autistic people — the fact that you point to one as a counterpoint to low functioning autistic individuals makes you look less self-aware, not more. Then again. what can we expect from someone who find the idea of a low functioning autistic adult wanting to go to law school is "preposterous."

So again, are you comfortable going up to someone with a serious learning disability and telling them that getting into law school isn't hard? That it's at most a "challenge" for them? 

"Look Timmy, I know you have a learning disability that holds you in the mental state of a 12-year-old, but why do you keep saying you can't get into law school? You want to be a lawyer. If you work hard enough you will be. If you don't, it's because you're a failure. It's entirely your fault. If you just sucked it up and tried harder you would be there, but instead, you're lazy. Don't you understand that Timmy?"

Not everyone is as privileged as you academically. Some people struggle. The world isn't fair, people don't get what they want nor what they deserve. You're exhibit A because I think everyone here thinks Timmy deserves to attend law school more than you. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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8 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

What do you mean you didn't state that? You said that law school is not hard, and is only possibly "challenging" for some people. Unless people with autism aren't "people" under your definition, that's exactly what you stated. 

You'll be shocked to know that being both blind and deaf doesn't affect your intelligence. Why is getting into law school "not hard" for most but "outstanding" for a deafblind person? 

You'll also be shocked to learn of the existence of high functioning autistic people — the fact that you point to one as a counterpoint to low functioning autistic individuals makes you look less self-aware, not more. Then again. what can we expect from someone who find the idea of a low functioning autistic adult wanting to go to law school is "preposterous."

So again, are you comfortable going up to someone with a serious learning disability and telling them that getting into law school isn't hard? That it's at most a "challenge" for them? 

"Look Timmy, I know you have a learning disability that holds you in the mental state of a 12-year-old, but why do you keep saying you can't get into law school? You want to be a lawyer. If you work hard enough you will be. If you don't, it's because you're a failure. It's entirely your fault. If you just sucked it up and tried harder you would be there, but instead, you're lazy. Don't you understand that Timmy?"

Not everyone is as privileged as you academically. Some people struggle. The world isn't fair, people don't get what they want nor what they deserve. You're exhibit A because I think everyone here thinks Timmy deserves to attend law school more than you. 

Wow, I can't believe what I am reading. Can someone really be this clueless? I was pointing to those people and their great accomplishment as something that should be admired yet you managed to misconstrue it into a petty argument to make me seem inhumane and yourself more humane. And I do know that high functioning autistic people exist which is why I pointed you towards Erick Weber. And obviously, that is preposterous, if I asked someone for advice on becoming a professional swimmer and I could not swim. Would it be cruel for them to tell me no? Obviously not. You still require intelligence to be a lawyer. Wow, my mind is blown by this forum and the quality of the people who regularly comment here, I am definitely reconsidering why I even posted a few words of encouragement for the OP.

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OP, you aren't getting your application money back, so withdrawing does nothing. I honestly would not write the LSAT until I was confidently hitting 165-170 with your stats. Even if this meant not writing it this year and skipping out on this admissions round. Write it next year, write it as late as possible. Taking another year off isn't going to harm you, especially if you are working and can use that work experience on your personal statement. Some schools average out LSAT score, and you don't want to end up with a 155 or a 160 that you'll have trouble mitigating in the future. The fact that you are kind of panicking about this as late as you are is what leads me to the conclusion that you should probably delay your LS goals another year and take the next year to actually get your shit together. 

Diplock touched on this - take some post-grad courses. I don't know how York does things, but it is possible to take courses after graduation to boost your cGPA, as a non-degree student. These won't boost your B3/L2, but it'll help with schools that look at cGPA and are more holistic - and they'll help you get into schools like UNB/TRU/UManitoba that drop bad grades specifically. It'll help within Ontario too, for schools that specifically look at cGPA. Plus, learning additional skill sets gives you a "soft" factor to add to your application that will help you with more holistic admissions (single JD at UWindsor, for example).

What sounds better: taking another year or two to get your shit together, figure out what you really want to do, and making a thoughtful decision, or blowing a bunch of money on a degree from another country that may or may not even land you a job? The dual program should be your last option, when you've exhausted all others. 

Another point - If OP was a "long time" lurker, I don't understand why she graduated with her current grades. Surely she would have known, especially if it is law school-or-bust for her? She should have taken a fifth (and even sixth) year and added a double major to her degree, worked very hard and got the grades needed, and as a result her B3/L3 would have been much higher. I don't know how it works at York, but people at other schools take fifth and sixth years all the time - U of T, Western, Guelph. I personally know a splitter who went from getting 2.5s in his first two years, to 4.0s in his last three. I don't think adcom cares that much about how long it took you to get your degree. But they do care a lot about that OLSAS index score that says "2.89" or "3.89". Future students reading this: take an extra year if you can afford it. It is certainly cheaper than a Windsor dual degree or going abroad. 

Sorry if it sounds harsh, OP. I do think that you can get into law school provided you put in a bit more effort and planning into your application. 

Edited by drankcoffee
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9 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

Wow, I can't believe what I am reading. Can someone really be this clueless? I was pointing to those people and their great accomplishment as something that should be admired yet you managed to misconstrue it into a petty argument to make me seem inhumane and yourself more humane. And I do know that high functioning autistic people exist which is why I pointed you towards Erick Weber. And obviously, that is preposterous, if I asked someone for advice on becoming a professional swimmer and I could not swim. Would it be cruel for them to tell me no? Obviously not. You still require intelligence to be a lawyer. Wow, my mind is blown by this forum and the quality of the people who regularly comment here, I am definitely reconsidering why I even posted a few words of encouragement for the OP.

So your response to a low functioning autistic individual is to point to a high functioning autistic person? And you think that's fine? Think on that. 

And again "Those people and their great accomplishment." What great accomplishment? You said that getting into law school isn't even hard. Why does the fact that someone has high functioning autism make it a great accomplishment? Their intelligence isn't decreased (it's normally increased, in fact). Why is it "great" for them? 

And yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say that if you asked Michael Phelps how to win a gold medal at the olympics, it would be cruel for him to say "You've just got try harder man. Winning a gold medal isn't even hard. At best, it's a challenge for some people."

 

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12 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

Wow, I can't believe what I am reading. Can someone really be this clueless? I was pointing to those people and their great accomplishment as something that should be admired yet you managed to misconstrue it into a petty argument to make me seem inhumane and yourself more humane. And I do know that high functioning autistic people exist which is why I pointed you towards Erick Weber. And obviously, that is preposterous, if I asked someone for advice on becoming a professional swimmer and I could not swim. Would it be cruel for them to tell me no? Obviously not. You still require intelligence to be a lawyer. Wow, my mind is blown by this forum and the quality of the people who regularly comment here, I am definitely reconsidering why I even posted a few words of encouragement for the OP.

I'm amazed anyone can be so clueless myself... 

What you're writing now is very much NOT what you wrote before. A more apt comparison would be telling someone whose dream was to become a professional singer but couldn't sing well despite taking lessons that singing is not hard, all it takes is more effort even for an average person, and so if they can't learn to sing well it's because they're not trying hard enough. I had a swimming comparison but @BlockedQuebecois did a better one.

Now, to continue that example if despite lessons and effort someone can't become a good singer it may be better to tell them, but tell them that not everyone can learn to sing well. Don't tell them that they're failing because they're not trying hard enough.

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