Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
tjbiz

[Split] Re discouraging advice on chances

Recommended Posts

I think there's a lot of pessimism on this post. You will never know unless you try. Even if you don't get in this cycle, you can work on improving your chances next year. If law school is your end goal, you will make it happen. But I'd say try out the LSAT, you might score high enough to get into one of the schools. Writing a compelling personal statement also can get you a long way. Trust yourself and the process. What is meant to be will be, but that's just insight. Whatever happens, if it's what you truly want, it'll work out eventually. 

[Mod edit: For context, this thread was split off from this post. While I've done my best, some replies might still refer to posts in the other thread]

Edited by Ryn
Split post. Added context.
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tjbiz said:

I think there's a lot of pessimism on this post. You will never know unless you try. Even if you don't get in this cycle, you can work on improving your chances next year. If law school is your end goal, you will make it happen. But I'd say try out the LSAT, you might score high enough to get into one of the schools. Writing a compelling personal statement also can get you a long way. Trust yourself and the process. What is meant to be will be, but that's just insight. Whatever happens, if it's what you truly want, it'll work out eventually. 

AGREED! Also, keep in mind that this is a student forum, meaning the advice you're being given is by people who, realistically, know very, very little about how admissions decisions are made. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JohnP said:

This simply isn't true. I know a few people who have transferred to other schools from Windsor's dual program.

Yes, I'm sure you do. I know a few people who have won the lottery. Doesn't mean lotto 64/9 is a good investment. 

Less sarcastically, the problem is that you only know a few people. The Windsor dual program accepts 188 students per year, according to their website. So if we take your "few" to mean "5", we're still looking at 183 people stuck in an overpriced program getting a degree they don't need. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tjbiz said:

I think there's a lot of pessimism on this post. You will never know unless you try. Even if you don't get in this cycle, you can work on improving your chances next year. If law school is your end goal, you will make it happen. But I'd say try out the LSAT, you might score high enough to get into one of the schools. Writing a compelling personal statement also can get you a long way. Trust yourself and the process. What is meant to be will be, but that's just insight. Whatever happens, if it's what you truly want, it'll work out eventually. 

 

Ugh, why do people say this kind of thing? Lots of people have law school as their end goal. Lots of people fail, in fact, the majority do. It happens every year. Not everyone with law school as their end goal "makes it happen." 

And no, things don't just "work out eventually" if "it's what you truly want." 

I truly wanted to marry Meghan Markle. Prince Harry is in the middle of ruining that for me right now (as @providence likes to remind me every once in a while). It's probably not going to work out eventually. 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Ugh, why do people say this kind of thing? Lots of people have law school as their end goal. Lots of people fail, in fact, the majority do. It happens every year. Not everyone with law school as their end goal "makes it happen." 

And no, things don't just "work out eventually" if "it's what you truly want." 

I truly wanted to marry Meghan Markle. Prince Harry is in the middle of ruining that for me right now (as @providence likes to remind me every once in a while). It's probably not going to work out eventually. 

 

They just announced their engagement this morning! 

I agree, things don’t “just work out” because you want them to. What about all the people suffering in the world? Do they just not *want* food/shelter/safety bad enough?

Law school doesn’t usually just fall into your lap, people worked really hard to get there, and some people still don’t make it for one reason or another. I despise the attitude that “if it’s meant to be it will be.” 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, tjbiz said:

I think there's a lot of pessimism on this post. You will never know unless you try. Even if you don't get in this cycle, you can work on improving your chances next year. If law school is your end goal, you will make it happen. But I'd say try out the LSAT, you might score high enough to get into one of the schools. Writing a compelling personal statement also can get you a long way. Trust yourself and the process. What is meant to be will be, but that's just insight. Whatever happens, if it's what you truly want, it'll work out eventually. 

 

8 hours ago, katefromlawschool said:

AGREED! Also, keep in mind that this is a student forum, meaning the advice you're being given is by people who, realistically, know very, very little about how admissions decisions are made. 

Well, now that we've heard from two more students who are repeating exactly what they themselves want to believe ... does anyone think that actually contributes to the OP's knowledge of their real situation? "Trust yourself?" "A compelling personal statement can go a long way?" "If it's what you truly want it'll work out eventually?" Do you even realize how obnoxious that last one is? I mean, it's great to feel like your life exists in made-for-tv-land where desire and persistence lead ultimately and inevitably to success for anyone who deserves it. But the necessary corollary of that idea is that in every case where it doesn't work out the person for whom it didn't work out was just inherently undeserving, and it wasn't their grades or their LSAT that kept them out of law school but rather some defect in their character, since you just presumed that anyone who does deserve it would get in.

In direct reply to Kate, who is decidedly and admittedly not from any law school as yet, this is a forum about law schools but populated by and large by people who are now in and in many cases graduated from law school years ago and are now practicing lawyers - myself included. There are at least half a dozen lawyers, on quick scan, who already replied. There was a time (I said this elsewhere, recently) when this forum was filled almost exclusively by wannabe law students. And at that time, it sounded almost exclusively like you two sound. It was relentlessly positive, filled with anodyne reassurances that knowing the right person, volunteering at the right place, and being the President of your pre-law club would make all the difference, and that anyone could get into law school if they just write a compelling personal statement and explain that their 3.0 GPA and their 150 LSAT doesn't reflect their real ability 'cause...whatever.

I'm sorry to be harsh. Or hell, maybe I'm not. Maybe I enjoy laying some reality on people sometimes when the stakes are low. Because honestly, compared to most of the shit I do all day, the stakes here are low and no one's going to jail for a few years no matter what happens. But we don't hang around here to shit on people because we like to be miserable. Your idea that a forum filled with students themselves would be discouraging - that's been actively disproved in practice. It isn't the students who discourage one another. The real students - the ones still hoping to attend law school themselves - are by and large incredibly supportive. It's just that they are also delusional. And I don't see how that helps anyone.

As I also said elsewhere, recently, if Morgan wanted to create a section of this forum for baseless reassurances, so that everyone can tell everyone else how awesome they are, I'd stay away from it. I also think it would get pretty dead pretty soon, because no one would bother posting there. You have friends and family to tell you that you're special and that you will surely achieve your dreams. To strangers on the Internet you aren't special, and when you ask strangers on the Internet for advice you're going to get (and you should get) the truth, even if it's rough. Not everyone does achieve their dreams. And since you aren't special, you might be one of them.

The positive side of this advice, which isn't harsh to no purpose, is this. Get your fucking shit together and control what you can still control. Get the best grades you can in the time remaining if you are still in school. If not in school, get the best LSAT possible. If you are utterly determined to attend law school "no matter what" and your grades suck and there's nothing left to do about that, then consider the few schools that might be willing to consider post-graduation grades and/or graduate program grades and seriously consider the fact that you may have to do some further studying between now and law school. And even then, be realistic about what you're up against. Because hearing and believing that a compelling personal narrative is going to make all the difference isn't just bullshit. It's toxic bullshit. It may stop you from doing something that you can still control, and which might make a real difference.

Edited by Diplock
  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Ugh, why do people say this kind of thing? Lots of people have law school as their end goal. Lots of people fail, in fact, the majority do. It happens every year. Not everyone with law school as their end goal "makes it happen." 

And no, things don't just "work out eventually" if "it's what you truly want." 

I truly wanted to marry Meghan Markle. Prince Harry is in the middle of ruining that for me right now (as @providence likes to remind me every once in a while). It's probably not going to work out eventually. 

 

They are engaged now! :wub:

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Diplock said:

 

Well, now that we've heard from two more students who are repeating exactly what they themselves want to believe ... does anyone think that actually contributes to the OP's knowledge of their real situation? "Trust yourself?" "A compelling personal statement can go a long way?" "If it's what you truly want it'll work out eventually?" Do you even realize how obnoxious that last one is? I mean, it's great to feel like your life exists in made-for-tv-land where desire and persistence lead ultimately and inevitably to success for anyone who deserves it. But the necessary corollary of that idea is that in every case where it doesn't work out the person for whom it didn't work out was just inherently undeserving, and it wasn't their grades or their LSAT that kept them out of law school but rather some defect in their character, since you just presumed that anyone who does deserve it would get in.

In direct reply to Kate, who is decidedly and admittedly not from any law school as yet, this is a forum about law schools but populated by and large by people who are now in and in many cases graduated from law school years ago and are now practicing lawyers - myself included. There are at least half a dozen lawyers, on quick scan, who already replied. There was a time (I said this elsewhere, recently) when this forum was filled almost exclusively by wannabe law students. And at that time, it sounded almost exclusively like you two sound. It was relentlessly positive, filled with anodyne reassurances that knowing the right person, volunteering at the right place, and being the President of your pre-law club would make all the difference, and that anyone could get into law school if they just write a compelling personal statement and explain that their 3.0 GPA and their 150 LSAT doesn't reflect their real ability 'cause...whatever.

I'm sorry to be harsh. Or hell, maybe I'm not. Maybe I enjoy laying some reality on people sometimes when the stakes are low. Because honestly, compared to most of the shit I do all day, the stakes here are low and no one's going to jail for a few years no matter what happens. But we don't hang around here to shit on people because we like to be miserable. Your idea that a forum filled with students themselves would be discouraging - that's been actively disproved in practice. It isn't the students who discourage one another. The real students - the ones still hoping to attend law school themselves - are by and large incredibly supportive. It's just that they are also delusional. And I don't see how that helps anyone.

As I also said elsewhere, recently, if Morgan wanted to create a section of this forum for baseless reassurances, so that everyone can tell everyone else how awesome they are, I'd stay away from it. I also think it would get pretty dead pretty soon, because no one would bother posting there. You have friends and family to tell you that you're special and that you will surely achieve your dreams. To strangers on the Internet you aren't special, and when you ask strangers on the Internet for advice you're going to get (and you should get) the truth, even if it's rough. Not everyone does achieve their dreams. And since you aren't special, you might be one of them.

The positive side of this advice, which isn't harsh to no purpose, is this. Get your fucking shit together and control what you can still control. Get the best grades you can in the time remaining if you are still in school. If not in school, get the best LSAT possible. If you are utterly determined to attend law school "no matter what" and your grades suck and there's nothing left to do about that, then consider the few schools that might be willing to consider post-graduation grades and/or graduate program grades and seriously consider the fact that you may have to do some further studying between now and law school. And even then, be realistic about what you're up against. Because hearing and believing that a compelling personal narrative is going to make all the difference isn't just bullshit. It's toxic bullshit. It may stop you from doing something that you can still control, and which might make a real difference.

I'm not in any law school yet, but as a long-time creeper of this forum, I've seen countless people post "chances" threads, be told they aren't likely to be admitted by other law applicants, and then be admitted themselves. I recently had a meeting with the Dean of Law at Calgary, who confirmed that a lot of the comments made on here are completely baseless and not to be trusted. And even if you are a practicing lawyer, you still aren't an admissions officer.

I can't believe a practicing lawyer would have the time or energy to type out such a long-winded, pointless response that adds absolutely nothing to any of the discussions in this thread -- which is a criticism you yourself made of me!

  • Like 6
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, katefromlawschool said:

I'm not in any law school yet, but as a long-time creeper of this forum, I've seen countless people post "chances" threads, be told they aren't likely to be admitted by other law applicants, and then be admitted themselves. I recently had a meeting with the Dean of Law at Calgary, who confirmed that a lot of the comments made on here are completely baseless and not to be trusted. And even if you are a practicing lawyer, you still aren't an admissions officer.

I can't believe a practicing lawyer would have the time or energy to type out such a long-winded, pointless response that adds absolutely nothing to any of the discussions in this thread -- which is a criticism you yourself made of me!

I think the main point is that no, not everyone will get into law school. Just because it's your dream and you set your mind to it, doesn't mean it will happen. Look at Osgoode - 2860 applicants for 290 people. That's a lot of rejections.

Giving someone an honest opinion on their chances is far more useful than living in a fairytale. The notion of 'trusting the process' is utter bullshit. If you have, say, a 2.3 and a 137, no one gives a shit that it's been your life long dream to attend law school, because at the end of the day, there are far better applicants than you and you're simply not competitive. People need to come back to reality. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, katefromlawschool said:

I'm not in any law school yet, but as a long-time creeper of this forum, I've seen countless people post "chances" threads, be told they aren't likely to be admitted by other law applicants, and then be admitted themselves. I recently had a meeting with the Dean of Law at Calgary, who confirmed that a lot of the comments made on here are completely baseless and not to be trusted. And even if you are a practicing lawyer, you still aren't an admissions officer.

I can't believe a practicing lawyer would have the time or energy to type out such a long-winded, pointless response that adds absolutely nothing to any of the discussions in this thread -- which is a criticism you yourself made of me!

While I was amused by your post, it often takes more time to write something brief and still cover the points one wants to. Hence my tendency to save that effort for work, not for posts here...

Someone who's been on this board a long time as Diplock has and has seen a lot of information may be in a better position to assess likelihood of admission than some, but for OP, the only sure thing is that if they withdraw their applications and don't write the LSAT they won't be getting in anywhere. Which at this point in time and given the sunk costs (time and money), doesn't really make sense to me. At this point, why not see what happens?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, katefromlawschool said:

I'm not in any law school yet, but as a long-time creeper of this forum, I've seen countless people post "chances" threads, be told they aren't likely to be admitted by other law applicants, and then be admitted themselves. I recently had a meeting with the Dean of Law at Calgary, who confirmed that a lot of the comments made on here are completely baseless and not to be trusted. And even if you are a practicing lawyer, you still aren't an admissions officer.

I can't believe a practicing lawyer would have the time or energy to type out such a long-winded, pointless response that adds absolutely nothing to any of the discussions in this thread -- which is a criticism you yourself made of me!

99% sure that the large number of baseless comments made here include ones like “ if law school is your dream it’ll happen” or similar, which you rather enthusiastically expressed agreement with. 

And if you’ve seen countless people be told they aren’t going to be admitted and then get admitted I have to assume you just can’t count very high, because by and large the prognostication here matches up with the outcomes. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, katefromlawschool said:

AGREED! Also, keep in mind that this is a student forum, meaning the advice you're being given is by people who, realistically, know very, very little about how admissions decisions are made. 

wrong

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, katefromlawschool said:

I'm not in any law school yet, but as a long-time creeper of this forum, I've seen countless people post "chances" threads, be told they aren't likely to be admitted by other law applicants, and then be admitted themselves. I recently had a meeting with the Dean of Law at Calgary, who confirmed that a lot of the comments made on here are completely baseless and not to be trusted. And even if you are a practicing lawyer, you still aren't an admissions officer.

I can't believe a practicing lawyer would have the time or energy to type out such a long-winded, pointless response that adds absolutely nothing to any of the discussions in this thread -- which is a criticism you yourself made of me!

This would be all well and good if the application process was free, but if you're encouraging people to waste money on applying to UBC or UofT with awful stats then I think you're doing more harm than good. In OP's case I agree that there's no point in cancelling since they already paid the fees. But realistically they ought to be encouraged to raise their GPA by any means possible or study hard for the LSAT if they want a realistic shot. Sure, people get in every year with all sorts of stats. But I think aiming to be an outlier is a foolish task.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Naysayers have been around since the stone ages and they aren't going anywhere. The most important thing is that you make them eat their words. Becoming a lawyer is not that hard and with effort I am more than certain that you will be able to do it. Best of luck op. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

Naysayers have been around since the stone ages and they aren't going anywhere. The most important thing is that you make them eat their words. Becoming a lawyer is not that hard and with effort I am more than certain that you will be able to do it. Best of luck op. 

Well. I'm convinced. 

  • Like 3
  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, UofT100 said:

Naysayers have been around since the stone ages and they aren't going anywhere. The most important thing is that you make them eat their words. Becoming a lawyer is not that hard and with effort I am more than certain that you will be able to do it. Best of luck op. 

Wait a sec. You're essentially insulting everyone who doesn't get into law school, telling them it's not that hard and with more effort they would have gotten in. WRONG, and even cruel.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My biggest worry for OP is that she might screw himself by writing the December LSAT. Schools have trended towards looking average LSAT scores rather than best. I'm not sure if that applies to Windsor / Western. Either way, gaining 15 points in less than a month is unrealistic.

OP, is it possible to defer your December LSAT to February or June? I would consider that option.

Also, any chance you are indigenous? I assume you are not because it hasn't come up, but admissions are a bit of a different game in that case.

Edited by Ambit
Misgendered OP.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, katefromlawschool said:

I'm not in any law school yet, but as a long-time creeper of this forum, I've seen countless people post "chances" threads, be told they aren't likely to be admitted by other law applicants, and then be admitted themselves. I recently had a meeting with the Dean of Law at Calgary, who confirmed that a lot of the comments made on here are completely baseless and not to be trusted. And even if you are a practicing lawyer, you still aren't an admissions officer.

I can't believe a practicing lawyer would have the time or energy to type out such a long-winded, pointless response that adds absolutely nothing to any of the discussions in this thread -- which is a criticism you yourself made of me!

Look, I'm not indifferent to the point you're trying to make. I also think that unnecessary discouragement can be harmful in cases where there are opportunities to improve one's chances.

But I don't think that's what's happening here. In fact, everyone has said that the OP should take the LSAT and to not withdraw their application. Not a single person said anything to discourage the OP from continuing with their plan. But what people have done is helped manage the OP's expectations: that is to say, we have told them that their odds aren't great and they should just keep that in mind when going through the process. That's actually a good thing. It helps them understand what is actually necessary and points them in the right direction. 

Some of the advice on this website is not very good. But the seasoned participants, particularly the practicing lawyers who have been through the process, help offset that. I'm not saying that they're infallible, but more often than not they tend to be pretty spot on. And some people here have been on admissions committees (or know people who are), some people are articling and thus have graduated law school, and some are lawyers. None of that is authoritative, sure, but if you're going to make that argument, they're certainly more qualified than you to give advice on these topics.

With respect to you seeing "countless people post 'chances threads'" and be told not to bother, only to get admitted: unless you have access to a private sampling of admissions data, this is like, totally wrong. I've compiled five years of admitted and rejected data for Ontario (as well as for UBC) and the resulting stats just don't back up your statement. Generally speaking, the medians are pretty clear. If someone is far below them and universally receives negative opinions in chances posts, then yeah, those opinions are probably accurate. If that person still succeeds, then they are an outlier and should be incredibly grateful; however, we shouldn't tailor our advice to outliers because then we'll end up having to say that any kid who's meh at hockey might be Gretzky for all we know so they just have to work super hard. Now I acknowledge these stats are not infallible and actually only represent the people who post their details on this forum, but we are talking about this forum, what you've seen in people's chances threads, and their ultimate admission, so in that particular context the data is actually very accurate.

Lastly, assuming Calgary's Dean actually did comment on this website to you: (1) I doubt he actually spent enough time here or knows about this place enough to form an opinion that's accurate; (2) even if he has, it's in his best interest to encourage as many people to apply to the faculty as possible; (3) even if that's not something he was thinking about when he made that comment, unless he expounded on it, you have no idea what he was actually meant. In other words, sure, think about what he said, but don't think his statement is categorically accurate.

Edited by Ryn
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying this as in "wish upon a star and it will come true". What I mean by if law school is your end goal, you will make it happen is you have to work hard. The poster clearly has low chances, there is no denying that, but if law school is truly what he/she wants, then what needs to be done will be to get exactly to that place. 

There's clearly a difference between being delusional and setting realistic goals. I know several people who are lawyers now who have went back to school 1-2 more years to upgrade their marks, some have added MA's even PhD's or work experience. Do not underestimate the personal statement. It played an essential role in my friend who had a 3.4 get into McGill law. 

Congrats to Meghan Markle btw, but that's a poor comparison. Even if you tried hard, you probably wouldn't get her.

A lot of people on here are mad for no reason. If law school is what you want, make it happen. There's no reason to focus on the negatives. It also never hurts to try.

Edited by tjbiz
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also the December LSAT is a BAD idea. If you know you have a poor average, focus on studying and giving yourself enough time to score within the right range so you'll score similar on the test. I have spoken to top scorers on here and most of them emphasize on time and practice. It's a marathon, not a race. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Recent Posts

    • I have yet to go through the application process myself, so I am open to being wrong here. However, if I am not mistaken, yield protection is primarily an American tactic, no? I have been browsing various forums for a while and do not recall any instances of a Canadian applicant with grades and an LSAT score well above a school's median being rejected. I think the sensible (and most time-efficient) thing to do is to construct a general PS that nevertheless allows you to make note of specific things that make a school attractive to you (e.g. a particular clinic, journal or institute/centre for a specialized area of law)--what you might call a cookie cutter approach. At least that is what I have been doing, but maybe it won't work!  Since schools are simply looking for the best applicants, my guess is that they are less interested in the area you hope to work in and more so the quality of your application relative to everybody else's, in which case, you might as well just write about what it is you truly want to do irrespective of where you are applying. Whether they are completely indifferent is a different question, I think. Though, once more, I've never been on an admissions committee, so...
    • The information that helped me the most writing my personal statement is that it’s a 2-way street. You need to talk about yourself and maybe a specific event that made you develop an interest in law. However, schools want to attain a good “yield” which is the amount of offers accepted vs the amount of offers given. As part of the process, the admissions committee will read the statement and ask themselves, “how likely are they to accept an offer from us?”. This is not necessarily advice so you know what to write about, but it helped me because it made me stress less about writing a perfectly crafted letter that I hope they will like and made me focus on how I can fit in and bring value.
    • Schools do tend to have those kinds of reputations, though their reputation isn't necessarily what they're looking to see reflected in application materials. For instance, U of T has a reputation for being "corporate" but the school itself likes the idea that it is a pathway for people who want to further access to justice and lots of people emphasize their interest in the schools' legal clinic opportunities and reputable International Human Rights Program in their personal statements.  It really depends on the story you're trying to tell about yourself. In my view, "tailoring" your personal statement just means connecting your past experiences together in a narrative, expressing your plan for the future, and making the school look like the next logical step in your path. There are probably a lot of other ways to think about the personal statement, but this was how I thought about mine when I wrote it (admittedly over three years ago). If you're looking to target your personal statements to the law schools you're applying to, I would suggest thinking about concrete and practical things that each school has to offer, and how those things relate to your reasons for wanting to be a lawyer. For instance, if you know that one school has a legal clinic which does bird law and you're interested in bird law, then you'd want to point out that clinic as part of why you're applying to the school/ why the school fits into the overall narrative you're trying to put forward in your personal statement. You can do the same sort of thing with profs (i.e., if school A has Canada's top 3 scholars in bird law, you can emphasize your interest in bird law and whatever bird law-specific courses School A offers in that area). You can get information about this from schools' websites and by asking current students about what they think of their schools' programs in your areas of interest. Hope this helps! To clarify, all the above are considerations on top of whatever requirement the school sets out for the personal statements' contents and structure. Also, if you're from out of province or from the other side of the province, you should give some location-related indication of why you want to go to a particular school. If you have one.
    • They just mean that they’ve tailored their statements to the specific strengths, concentrations, and/or missions of the school. Some people will also discuss how they’d want to practice in the market where the school is located. Schools like uOttawa also have particular components that they look for when reading personal statements. This info is available on their Common Law website. Here’s the link:  https://commonlaw.uottawa.ca/en/students/admissions/how-to-apply/writing-your-personal-statement  Best of luck to you! 

×
×
  • Create New...