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  • Who's Online   17 Members, 0 Anonymous, 57 Guests (See full list)

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  • Recent Posts

    • Turtles
      What do you think happens when the firm grows by adding an nth fee-earner? What do you think happens when it shrinks? Rent is "fixed" until they need to add space, then it grows as productivity grows (variable), then it remains more fixed-like until the new capacity is again hit or they shed need for the new space, etc. Remember, if the firm shrinks, it may be able to give up space (e.g., an entire floor or half floor, etc) to save significant $$$ in rent. Effectively, it's pretty hybrid. (Some inefficiencies result from actual availability of space or interest in others to take your space or terms of long-term leases, etc, but we digress.) 
    • loonie
      ?? Lol. Are you saying rent is not a fixed overhead cost? 
    • Turtles
      Look up variable vs fixed overhead.
    • loonie
      I guess where we disagree is that I feel like using the term overhead costs in such a way is silly.  That's not the overhead cost of hiring a student per se, but an overhead cost of the firm operating in a particular location for the purpose of carrying on business. All business incur overhead costs and I'm not saying overhead costs in itself are not expensive, but I've never heard of it being attributed as a cost of having employees work there. If we go down such a path, we also have to include that all employees (admin clerks, law clerks, legal assistants) are costing the firm hundreds of thousands of dollars in overhead costs. It becomes a somewhat meaningless metric for what we are trying to argue. Not to mention it changes drastically between each firm -- which is the reason I said it was arbitrary -- because one firm might provide a student with a 60-100 square foot office, whereas another firm will have 10 students working within the same 100 square feet in cubicles. It just seems wrong to allocate rent costs and fee splits with regards to students. I can see it being more reasonable to discuss in terms of associates and partners who utilize support staff and assistants, and where you can more accurately attribute office space rent towards.  Instead, when I think of overhead costs attributed to students, I think it makes more sense to include costs such as software licensing fees, articling fees, training programs, and things of that nature that you mentioned. Still, it will get no where near $100K+ per student. 
    • Turtles
      Just wait until you find out how much enterprise technology licenses, group benefits, employer-paid payroll taxes, meals, direct reimbursable expenses, training, events, and Bay St rent and utilities cost.  Your salary is a small part of the picture. Then add in the time of assistants and support staff who make your job easier (and thereby lead you to bill more). When those factors make your billable rate possible and workload possible, it's not arbitrary to use it as the cost base against which your revenues are adjusted, If such high overhead feels wrong to you, you should look up what's market for associate fee splits. Overhead is expensive. While big law has more lawyers, and therefore a bigger base against whom overhead is spread, it also tends to have a lot of expensive "extras" to compete against the biggest players, so it's not miraculously lower. Big law should pay students and juniors more, but it has less to do with what is fair or just, and more to do with retaining top talent.
    • WiseGhost
      To get back to what this conversation was originally about, I think that students are not as much of a burden as some claim. Bay street firms likely aren't breaking even when they pay students a $100k annualized salary, but that is not the only situation where firms hire students. Relatively low paid students can do time consuming research work that lawyers would otherwise have to do, write articles to increase firm visibility, do admin tasks, etc. A good student can provide value.  This is based on my personal and inexperienced analysis of the situation, and I won't pretend otherwise. But sometimes people act as if hiring law students is a huge favour, and I think that is an incomplete take. 
    • pepper
      Waitlisted on March 26th CGPA - 3.76 LSAT - 157 You'll see a new message on the osgoode portal. There wasn't an email notification or anything 
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