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2018 2L Recruitment

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5 hours ago, maximumbob said:

In discussions around the "Black on Bay" story, one of my concerns was that such stories painted a misleading picture of biglaw which might intimidate or discourage lawyers from racialized backgrounds.  We see an example of that in that survey:

 So, this poor student went in feeling they were at as disadvantage practicing in biglaw by virtue of his or her "mixed race" status.  As if OCI's are nerve-wracking enough already.  

What we actually know, from the LSUC, is that 14% of White lawyer work at biglaw (firms bigger than 200 lawyers), 13% of Racialized lawyers work in biglaw, 15% of "Racialized and White" mixed race lawyers work in Biglaw, 14% of "more than one group" mixed race lawyers work in biglaw, which rather strongly suggests that being "mixed race" doesn't have much of an impact on the likelihood of you practicing in biglaw.  http://www.lsuc.on.ca/uploadedFiles/Equity_and_Diversity/Members2/Lawyer-Snapshot 2015.pdf

Might it not have helped that student if he or she had been presented with actual data?   If for no other reason than to take one thing off their mind.  

Aside, some of those response are rather sad, and suggest students who really aren't in control of their own lives.  Why would you interview at a firm you don't want to work at?  

Student reaction to Black on Bay Street:

http://ultravires.ca/2017/11/5539/

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I had some version of the "first choice" conversation with seven different lawyers from the same firm during two interviews and a dinner. I just danced around it, I guess because it was funny that they kept returning to it over and over again. 

Edited by Eeee
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I agree with dart. @Rearden and @pzabbythesecond might be a bit outdated with their info/experiences. This year, this was a common theme i heard from a lot of my friends, and even experienced it myself with one firm (the firms that I know of forsure that did this were - gowling, baker, blg, dentons, bennett jones, and stikes) . The firm i was dealing with monoplized my time and in the end flat out told me that I would be getting an offer. Call time came and no offer from that firm. Luckily another firm who I was smart enough to keep in play ended up calling and extended an offer which I happily accepted.

Luckily it worked out for me but i want students going into the recruit with accurate and reliable information and know what they are dealing with. Instead of the fancy stories of all firms being honest, blah blah blah. Well, i do agree there are firms like that out there - i don't believe that is the majority.

 

 

Edited by WellsFargo
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For the record I haven't gone through the process. I may not even go through it. I was reflecting on what I've been told by students and associates/partners involved in it.

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2 hours ago, pzabbythesecond said:

But there's a difference between a firm showing interest and saying "first choice". The firm never says first choice. The firm shows interest. Just because that doesn't end up in an offer doesn't mean they weren't supremely interested and didn't make the decision between you and that other person they really liked too. 

 

Intent and effect is different. I don't think any firm purposely screws students over who they have no intention in hiring. It seems.. inefficient given what the process entails from them.

4

Yeah but they lead you on, monopolize your time, and keep you around just in case people from their "A" list reject their offer and they have to make out more offers, knowing full well that you are probably sacrificing other opportunities where you have a better chance of getting hired. Heck, it makes the most logical sense to do that too, you have to keep a contingency. But don't then go around and hold it against students when they do the same by telling more than one firm "First choice". If anything, this first choice bs and the expectation to say it should be eliminated.

5 minutes ago, WellsFargo said:

I agree with dart. @Rearden and @pzabbythesecond might be a bit outdated with their info/experiences. This year, this was a common theme i heard from a lot of my friends, and even experienced it myself with one firm (the firms that I know of forsure that did this were - gowling, baker, blg, dentons, bennett jones, and stikes) . The firm i was dealing with monoplized my time and in the end flat out told me that I would be getting an offer. Call time came and no offer from that firm. Luckily another firm who I was smart enough to keep in play ended up calling and extended an offer which I happily accepted.

Luckily it worked out for me but i want students going into the recruit with accurate and reliable information and know what they are dealing with. Instead of the fancy stories of all firms being honest, blah blah blah. Well, i do agree there are firms like that out there - i don't believe that is the majority.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. At a lot of the firms this year, you pretty much had to say first choice to get hired (hearing from my friends across multiple schools). Your experiences are a perfect example of what I just wrote a paragraph before. They expect you to pretty much make a leap of faith and take that risk of practically rejecting other firms by not telling them first choice, but they can lead you on and you really don't know whether you'll be made the offer or you're the backup they're keeping just in case.

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Well, I don't think my experiences are that "outdated" (I doubt that much has changed in a year), but I'll acknowledge that people experience the process differently.

Here's the thing, though: if you counsel future applicants to say "first choice" to multiple employers, what do you think the employers are going to do in response? My guess is that the jerking around you described will become even more prevalent. (It's possible that last year's crop of students is, to some extent, responsible for the firms' behaviour this year.)

And I think Uriel has made this point previously (in another thread, perhaps), and Pzabby alluded to it above: as a general rule, I find it hard to believe that a firm would strategize about screwing students over and encourage its lawyers to spend their (valuable) time doing so.

I'm not saying the OCI/in-firm process is all sunshine and roses, but I don't think it's as terrible as the Ultra Vires stories and anecdotes on this forum portray it to be.

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I also think an important thing to keep in mind is that the students most motivated to write lengthy responses are the ones that came out empty handed/with an offer but not from firm of choice... grain of salt people 

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2 minutes ago, healthlaw said:

I also think an important thing to keep in mind is that the students most motivated to write lengthy responses are the ones that came out empty handed/with an offer but not from firm of choice... grain of salt people 

Not so sure. No skin in the game this year but from a family perspective was last year and while it all worked out it was a complete gong show. I completely sympathize. 

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3 hours ago, Rearden said:

I also think that students should approach horror stories with a healthy amount of skepticism. I suspect that at least some of those stories are embellished.

Not to discount the feelings of anyone who didn’t get a postition through the process, but they ask for this survey to be completed right after OCIs are finished. A lot of people are understandably stung at that point and some of the comments reflect that. 

That being said I too got jerked around when I went through the process, and if I was to broadcast what happened without embellishing anything it would sound pretty bad, so shit does happen. 

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45 minutes ago, healthlaw said:

I also think an important thing to keep in mind is that the students most motivated to write lengthy responses are the ones that came out empty handed/with an offer but not from firm of choice... grain of salt people 

I actually got into my top choice firm (which I wanted to go into even before I applied for OCIs). So please don't be assuming. I think I have enough heart to feel for the people that I thought deserved a job but were screwed out of one, and enough empathy to be concerned for future law students around how this recruitment is structured. 

Edited by Dart
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14 minutes ago, Dart said:

I actually got into my top choice firm (which I wanted to go into even before I applied for OCIs). So please don't be assuming. I think I have enough heart to feel for the people that I thought deserved a job but were screwed out of one, and enough empathy to be concerned for future law students around how this recruitment is structured. 

I don’t lack empathy nor do I think the process is perfect.. I just think peoples opinions and motivations for responding will be heavily influenced by their outcomes so UV should be read with a grain of salt. I probably could have stated that better..

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2 hours ago, WellsFargo said:

I agree with dart. @Rearden and @pzabbythesecond might be a bit outdated with their info/experiences. This year, this was a common theme i heard from a lot of my friends, and even experienced it myself with one firm (the firms that I know of forsure that did this were - gowling, baker, blg, dentons, bennett jones, and stikes) . The firm i was dealing with monoplized my time and in the end flat out told me that I would be getting an offer. Call time came and no offer from that firm. Luckily another firm who I was smart enough to keep in play ended up calling and extended an offer which I happily accepted.

Luckily it worked out for me but i want students going into the recruit with accurate and reliable information and know what they are dealing with. Instead of the fancy stories of all firms being honest, blah blah blah. Well, i do agree there are firms like that out there - i don't believe that is the majority.

 

 

I had the same thing happen with a firm. Was told I was going to get an offer Wednesday afternoon. I passed on an opportunity at another firm thinking I had a job in the bag. Unfortunately I got no offers on call day.  I feel like such an idiot. 

I landed a job outside of the OCI process. But I must say the whole thing fucked with my head, my confidence, and my self-esteem. 

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Having just gone through the recruitment process as well, I want to echo what Dart and a few others have said. I secured a job at my top choice firm, so I'm not salty about my own situation. But just to chime in and confirm the experiences of a few others here, I personally experienced multiple firms not just bending - but outright breaking - the LSUC rules by trying to pressure a "first choice" out of me (i.e. "we're making you an offer, but only if you tell us at this very moment that you'll 100% accept). I also know of a few close friends who were told straight up that they were going to get an offer at 5pm Wednesday, and monopolized their time all Wednesday, only to leave them out to dry once 5pm rolled around. It definitely made me a little bit more cynical about the whole process. Before I went through it I thought it was ridiculous to advise people to say first choice to more than one firm - and I still think there's consequences to saying it and then rejecting an offer from a firm... but in the long run, I think the alternative of not saying it and being left out to dry could be worse. I guess my point is that I was surprised at how many firms completely disregarded the LSUC rules - obviously my own sample size is small, but take it for what you will. 

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Also went through the recruitment process this year and landed at my top choice. The process is really political but I still don't think candidates should say first choice to more than one firm. I think it may be better to act like you don't know what first choice means if asked that question or a similar question about if you would accept an offer. I went with something along the lines of, 'This process is so crazy, but I definitely appreciate how comfortable this firm makes me feel throughout the process and that feeling is definitely at the top of my list of criteria to consider in pikcing a firm..and  I feel like that should say a lot to you."

 If they pressure you for a yes I would accept an offer, at that point, I would probably just say it and if they make you an offer you still have time to decide (if you get multiple offers or maybe feel like you didn't like their approach ) and if they don't make you an offer you know you what you could to secure one despite the rule bending on their parts.

Edited by purplehibiscus

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I agree with dart. @Rearden and @pzabbythesecond might be a bit outdated with their info/experiences. This year, this was a common theme i heard from a lot of my friends, and even experienced it myself with one firm (the firms that I know of forsure that did this were - gowling, baker, blg, dentons, bennett jones, and stikes) . The firm i was dealing with monoplized my time and in the end flat out told me that I would be getting an offer. Call time came and no offer from that firm. Luckily another firm who I was smart enough to keep in play ended up calling and extended an offer which I happily accepted.

Luckily it worked out for me but i want students going into the recruit with accurate and reliable information and know what they are dealing with. Instead of the fancy stories of all firms being honest, blah blah blah. Well, i do agree there are firms like that out there - i don't believe that is the majority.

 

 

In retrospect, how would you advise students to deal with firms that are known for monopolizing time dishonestly? You hear the same stories about the same firm(s) every year - would you advise students to stay away from such a firm if they have other potential firms on the table?

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For those of you who feel that you have been misled, screwed over, and that some of the firms you interviewed with disregarded LSUC rules, have you discussed this with your CDO? Have your friends that you've cited here also?

I think there are cases every year where an employer may not come out and say "we will definitely be calling you with an offer on call day" but perhaps something more like "we would love to be able to make you an offer on call day" or "we can see you working here at the firm". I would not be surprised if there are some who are involved in the interview process who might say things more strongly and more definitively than they should but, as Uriel has pointed out in a few very good posts about the process in this thread, no one knows for sure who is going to get those calls until the discussion/decision meeting takes place. Firms will always need to court multiple students, depending on the number of positions they need to fill. Students should be aware of this, going into the process, and I know that schools prepare students for the process and make this clear. I think the same discussion can be had with the 'monopolizing of time'. Is it actually done intentionally and for some nefarious reason by the firms? For what purpose? I can tell you that every year there have been students that someone in the process has strongly advocated for, and who don't make it past the meeting. This is upsetting for those of us on this side of the table, I can assure you. It is also upsetting when the tables are turned, and you are given all the signals that a student will accept an offer if made, only to be turned down on call day and that results in losing out on another great candidate.

It's probably as good an idea now as it was prior to the process for those of you who participated to reread the entire Recruitment thread. There is a lot of good information in here that may allay some of your anger as well as your anxiety about the future.

If there are clear breaches of the LSUC rules, your CDO should be told. Enjoy your weekend, mourn a bit and then move on. As has been said ad nauseum here, there are other great opportunities out there, many of them better than what you feel you have lost.

I will also add that more than one account is not allowed here. Those of you who have set up a second account for whatever reason, or are thinking of doing so, be aware of this rule and please follow it.

 

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2 hours ago, hmyo said:

has anyone heard from the OSC for interviews yet?

I've heard that they usually take until sometime in February to contact applicants

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MOVING ON TO OTTAWA RECRUITMENT!!

Anyone know how early ITCs are usually emailed out? Actual invitations for OCIs go out Jan 31 this year.

Thnx!

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